MEP-002A, will Start, Run then dies....any suggestions?

[2Pbfeet]

Head glow plugs can't be wired in series since the thread in the block is ground.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

Thanks. My bad. I did know that. CRS strikes again.

 

[Scoobyshep]

Thanks. My bad. I did know that. CRS strikes again.

No worries, the reason the manifold heater gets away with it is due to them both being isolated from chassis, then jumped.

There are a few ways to make it work but if the proper parts are available then there's no sense in rigging it. If you have an overwhelming need to rig it let me know I'd be glad to share my electrical ninja abilities

 

[2Pbfeet]

No worries, the reason the manifold heater gets away with it is due to them both being isolated from chassis, then jumped.

There are a few ways to make it work but if the proper parts are available then there's no sense in rigging it. If you have an overwhelming need to rig it let me know I'd be glad to share my electrical ninja abilities

Yes, total brain freeze on my part.

I do know a couple of ways to make the 12V glow plug work, but as the correct 24V 182 CH42 glow plugs are available, no reason to call on your special electrical ninja abilities. Save them for something special.

All the best,

2Pbfeet

 

[rickf]

Has anyone seen the CH49 glows for the intake anywhere?

 

[Ray70]

Has anyone seen the CH49 glows for the intake anywhere?

Not sure where I got them but found them for $15 a few years ago. I also seem to remember a place called Race Mart having them a long time ago.

 

[Ray70]

Here’s my plan:

1. IP: remove, disassemble, clean, inspect, reassemble and reinstall.

2. Injectors: remove, see if a local diesel shop can inspect, clean, and test them then reinstall.

3. Remove and replace Glow Plus and Manifold Heaters as a preventative measure.


Questions:

• Can I /Should I use CRC Knock’er Loose on all “connection threads” for the Injector Nozzle Assemble, IP, Glow Plugs and Intake Manifold Heater Plugs? There’re pretty corroded.
• Since this IP and Engine have run fine in the past do I need to worry about any “Timing” issues or do I just need to turn the flywheel clockwise until the “PC” mark on the flywheel lines up with the Timing Pointer (and leave it there) in order for proper remove and reinstall of the IP? Put engine at TDC compression on #1 with the pointer on the PC mark and insert a 1/8" drill bit into the hole in the left side of the IP through the flat head screw plug hole. It should slip into a notch in the side of the IP drive gear. By slightly rotating the blower wheel back and forth you will feel the drill bit move a little if you're in the slot. To be sure, look at the pic. I sent you yesterday showing the orientation of the cam lobe after you remove the pump. If your cam is orientated different you are 180* off.
• Should I give the IP (and Injector Nozzle Assembles) an Acetone bath while whole or after disassemble or both? Take it apart and then clean it.
• What IP parts (i.e. O-Rings) should I for sure replace during reassemble? Most likely the plunger guide is damaged. Also you do not need the $50 delivery valve spacer, it is not needed when reassembling the IP on a bench and really serves no purpose other than to help install the delivery valve with the pump sideways.
• Does anyone have any recent experience getting parts from Ambac directly? I’ve read mixed Posts. They stopped selling to the public a good 5-6 years ago. For a while they would still sell to "previous customers" but that has also stopped. This si why you find the conflicting info, the "previous customer" loophole....
• Any suggested sources for IP parts, Injector Assembles, Glow Plugs and Intake Manifold Heater Plugs other than Ambac, GMG, or eBay? Unfortunately GMG and ebay are the only quick source. Ambac told me I could order through any of their authorized dealers, but the 1 I tried wasn't interested, so GMG it was....
• Any other “Tips & Tricks” you all would suggest? Take your time, work in a clean area. Don't pinch the IP body sideways in a vise, The throttle assembly is a real bitch to get back into place, be patient.

I didn’t want to sound like a broken record but again, thank you all in advance. This Forum and its Members are an invaluable source of information and help for me and others!!!!! Once you get into it, if you have questions you can email me directly or if you're totally lost I will give you my # and you can call me.

 

[1FAST4]

.....Be sure you are on compression of cyl 1 of you rely just on the PC mark you have a 50% chance (Murphy says 100%) you'll end up 180 out

I'm not really understanding what this phrase means; "Be sure you are on compression of cyl 1", I not getting the mechanics of what I need to do to. I assume its turning the Flywheel into a curtain position but then, how do I know when when I'm have it in the right position to avoid the "180 out" position? Are there any visual clues once the #1 Cylinder is in its correct position? @Ray70 used a similar phrase, "....( cyl. #1 on the compression stroke with "PC" aligned with the pointer on the flywheel )..." in this Post from a similar issue Thread, here, 2nd sentence...I was going to ask him the same question(s).

I just read Section 7-18 of the TM again. On Page marked 7-38 it says:
f. Install (Method 1).
(1) Turn engine flywheel to the port closing mark
(PC) on the front cylinder (closest to blower wheel) compression
stroke (see figure 7-44 ).

Sorry, but its still not clicking for me...what am I missing?

 

[Scoobyshep]

Okay this is super easy take the valve cover off and look at the rockers as close to the blower as possible the closest 2. Use a 5/8 socket on a ratchet to turn the blower wheel clockwise very slowly and observe the rockers when they are both in the same position you are on the compression stroke. Then you can line the pointer up with PC on the flywheel mark and you should be in the right position.

When you're looking straight at the injection pump on the left there's a small flat head screw this is the alignment groove Ray had mentioned. If you remove that screw and stick a 1/8 in drill bit it should go in and lock into this groove.

This may seem intimidating but once you do it it's super easy

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

 

[Scoobyshep]

The 180 out comes in the play because the flywheel turns twice for every revolution of the injection pump so you can be lined up at PC but it's 180° out on the injection pump because it's not in the compression stroke

If you end up pulling the injection pump and the alignment groove is on the side opposite the screw no big deal just turn the engine over again until PC is aligned

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[Guyfang]

You are over thinking the operation. Take your time, and it will work out. And if you are 180 out, its simple to fix. Scooby outlined it. Its in the book. The first two times I did this, I didn't read the book, and had it 180 out.

 

[1FAST4]

You are over thinking the operation. Take your time, and it will work out. And if you are 180 out, its simple to fix. Scooby outlined it. Its in the book. The first two times I did this, I didn't read the book, and had it 180 out.

You're absolutely correct about over thinking it. Sitting at the computer and reading everything is not the same as putting what I've read and what you guys have told me into practice. I think once at the Gen Set, doing it, it will probably become crystal clear...

The next 2 weeks for me are kind of crazy but I will see what I can get accomplished on the Get Set and let you guys know.

 

[1FAST4]

Questions:

• Can I /Should I use CRC Knock’er Loose on all “connection threads” for the Injector Nozzle Assemble, IP, Glow Plugs and Intake Manifold Heater Plugs? There’re pretty corroded.
• Since this IP and Engine have run fine in the past do I need to worry about any “Timing” issues or do I just need to turn the flywheel clockwise until the “PC” mark on the flywheel lines up with the Timing Pointer (and leave it there) in order for proper remove and reinstall of the IP? Put engine at TDC compression on #1 with the pointer on the PC mark and insert a 1/8" drill bit into the hole in the left side of the IP through the flat head screw plug hole. It should slip into a notch in the side of the IP drive gear. By slightly rotating the blower wheel back and forth you will feel the drill bit move a little if you're in the slot. To be sure, look at the pic. I sent you yesterday showing the orientation of the cam lobe after you remove the pump. If your cam is orientated different you are 180* off.
• Should I give the IP (and Injector Nozzle Assembles) an Acetone bath while whole or after disassemble or both? Take it apart and then clean it.
• What IP parts (i.e. O-Rings) should I for sure replace during reassemble? Most likely the plunger guide is damaged. Also you do not need the $50 delivery valve spacer, it is not needed when reassembling the IP on a bench and really serves no purpose other than to help install the delivery valve with the pump sideways.
• Does anyone have any recent experience getting parts from Ambac directly? I’ve read mixed Posts. They stopped selling to the public a good 5-6 years ago. For a while they would still sell to "previous customers" but that has also stopped. This si why you find the conflicting info, the "previous customer" loophole....
• Any suggested sources for IP parts, Injector Assembles, Glow Plugs and Intake Manifold Heater Plugs other than Ambac, GMG, or eBay? Unfortunately GMG and ebay are the only quick source. Ambac told me I could order through any of their authorized dealers, but the 1 I tried wasn't interested, so GMG it was....
• Any other “Tips & Tricks” you all would suggest? Take your time, work in a clean area. Don't pinch the IP body sideways in a vise, The throttle assembly is a real bitch to get back into place, be patient.

I didn’t want to sound like a broken record but again, thank you all in advance. This Forum and its Members are an invaluable source of information and help for me and others!!!!! Once you get into it, if you have questions you can email me directly or if you're totally lost I will give you my # and you can call me.

Oh Geez...I just now saw the "Expand" button on this Post and for the first time viewed your responses to my questions which will definitely help.

I haven't received the Pic of the Cam Lobe Orientation as of yet; just sent you a PM.

 

[Ray70]

Is the C-Clamp an 8", 10", or 12"? I'd like to just get one prepped.

10" will do it. An eight might be too close for comfort, depending how deep your socket is.

 

[1FAST4]

Today, I went to start pulling the IP out but immediately ran into in issue. I pulled the rocker arm cover to set the #1 Cylinder on the compression stroke. I turned the flywheel, via the blower nut, clockwise until I felt the two Cylinder 1's rockers were in the same position and looked in the Timing Port...No "PC" mark on the flywheel. I continued too slowly turn the flywheel clockwise then saw the "A" mark, continued turning the flywheel then saw the "B" mark; I continued turning until the "A" showed again...No "PC". I turned the flywheel all the way around two more times and no (visible) "PC" mark at all. The edge of the flywheel, closest to the block, has some heavy rust on it in spots which I'm sure is hiding or has maybe even remove the "PC" mark.

Would the "PC" mark be between the A and the B marks or the B and the A marks specifically? If so, that would help me narrow the search area.

Any suggestions?

Here's what the Rocker Arms looked like on the A and B marks:

"A"


"B"

 

[Ray70]

In that picture the valves on cyl 1 ( right side in picture.) are not correct.
Do this... determine which valve is intake ( left ) and which is exhaust ( right ) looking from the IP side.
rotate the motor until the intake opens and then closes.
Continue turning clockwise about 75 degrees ( something less than 90 degrees.
Stick your 1/8" drill bit in the plug in the base of the IP while pitting slight 1 finger pressure pushing in.
Continue rotating clockwise very slowly. you should feel the bit drop about 1/8" further into the IP right about at the 90degree point from where the intake valve first fully closed.
Look in the window and you should see the PC mark.
The TM explains the "A" and "B" marks on the flywheel and their relevance to the PC mark. I believe they are valve adjusting marks, but I don't recall off hand where they are in relation to the PC mark.

 

[1FAST4]

In that picture the valves on cyl 1 ( right side in picture.) are not correct.
Do this... determine which valve is intake ( left ) and which is exhaust ( right ) looking from the IP side.
rotate the motor until the intake opens and then closes.
Continue turning clockwise about 75 degrees ( something less than 90 degrees.
Stick your 1/8" drill bit in the plug in the base of the IP while pitting slight 1 finger pressure pushing in.
Continue rotating clockwise very slowly. you should feel the bit drop about 1/8" further into the IP right about at the 90degree point from where the intake valve first fully closed.
Look in the window and you should see the PC mark.
The TM explains the "A" and "B" marks on the flywheel and their relevance to the PC mark. I believe they are valve adjusting marks, but I don't recall off hand where they are in relation to the PC mark.

It's funny, what you described is what I woke up this morning thinking about as one method of confirming where the PC mark is or should be...I was going to run it by you guys today, but you beat me to the punch...I will give this a try today.

The other method I was thinking about was to use the "Flow Timing" Method (2) described in the TM 34 and the Onan "Instruction Sheet"...I would try this method to simply locate/ID where the PC mark is or should be than remark that spot on the flywheel as the "PC". My thingking was, since the pump/engine were running fine prior to this current issue, both are, were timed correctly and that using either "Timing" methods would allow me to find or remark the correct location of the "PC"...but I could be wrong in my theory.

One question: How do I know when the valve(s) are open or closed? Are the Rocker Arm(s), on the IP side Up, Down or in the Middle?

 

[Mullaney]

It's funny, what you described is what I woke up this morning thinking about as one method of confirming where the PC mark is or should be...I was going to run it by you guys today, but you beat me to the punch...I will give this a try today.

The other method I was thinking about was to use the "Flow Timing" Method (2) described in the TM 34 and the Onan "Instruction Sheet"...I would try this method to simply locate/ID where the PC mark is or should be than remark that spot on the flywheel as the "PC". My thingking was, since the pump/engine were running fine prior to this current issue, both are, were timed correctly and that using either "Timing" methods would allow me to find or remark the correct location of the "PC"...but I could be wrong in my theory.

One question: How do I know when the valve(s) are open or closed? Are the Rocker Arm(s), on the IP side Up, Down or in the Middle?

.
Rocker Arms will be UP to be closed.

 

[rickf]

Rocker arms will be up for the valves to be closed! Something else to watch is if one rocker is coming up and the other is going down just as they reach the top then you need to go one full turn. You need both to be completely up and moving the flywheel a little in either direction will not move the rockers. THAT is TDC for that cylinder.

 

[Ray70]

Rocker arms will be up for the valves to be closed! Something else to watch is if one rocker is coming up and the other is going down just as they reach the top then you need to go one full turn. You need both to be completely up and moving the flywheel a little in either direction will not move the rockers. THAT is TDC for that cylinder.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you Rick, but wouldn't that be BDC on cyl #1? The intake valve closes somewhere around the bottom of the stroke, then rotating another ~90 degrees after the intake closes brings the piston up to the top of the compression stroke. Now it's at TDC.

 

[1FAST4]

Stick your 1/8" drill bit in the plug in the base of the IP while pitting slight 1 finger pressure pushing in.
Continue rotating clockwise very slowly. you should feel the bit drop about 1/8" further into the IP right about at the 90degree point from where the intake valve first fully closed.
Look in the window and you should see the PC mark.

Okay...short version; Found the "PC" mark and its hash mark, turned the flywheel so the timing pointer was on the "PC" hashmark, 1/8" bit moves freely in and out of the IP's timing port and alignment hole of the face gear...Done. Ready to remove...YES??

Longer version:
I put an 1/8" bit into the timing hole on the side of the (still mounted) IP and began slowly turning the flywheel while applying lite pressure to the bit until I could feel the bit drop into the face gear...I look into the timing port on side of flywheel housing and nothing, no "PC" mark just rust. I put a Sharpie mark on flywheel at the pointer and repeated the process. This time when the bit dropped it the face gear, I looked into the timing port and could see the Sharpie mark was just below the pointer and while shining a flashlight at varying angle I caught a glimpse of a C. With some careful, light scraping of the rust using the flat bottom edge of a screwdriver, Carb clean and compressed air I was able to clean it enough to clearly see the "PC" mark and corresponding yellow hash mark...BINGO!...I also added a mark with a silver, oil based, paint pen on the left side of the P and in line with the "PC" hash mark to hopefully make it easier to find in the future.

Next, just to confirm, I removed the drill bit, turn the flywheel, then repeated the above process and the drill bit dropped into the face gear hole at or about the corresponding "PC" mark on the flywheel. With the drill bit still in the face gear I very slightly and very gentle moved the flywheel clockwise and counter and noticed the dill bit would start to tighten up about 1½ to 2 hash marks below the "PC" hash mark and about 1 to 1½ hash marks above the "PC" hash mark...I'm guessing that these "spaces" above and below the "PC" mark account for the "slightly opening-fully opened-slightly closed-fully closed" positions of the output valve of the IP...again just my guess. You guys feel free to correct me and/or elaborate.

So, that's it thus far. I will pull the IP tomorrow afternoon unless I hear from you guys to the contrary.