Water Injection

[Rolling_Eudaimonia]

I think Water-Injection could be great help when you're off-road and need that extra little bit of push. The modification is cheap, I've seen a system that appears to fill the bill and for like $800 you go from doing 130hp peak power to like 150-160hp with MW50 and of course it lowers EGT during heavy pulling. Which is a plus when your down in the muck you need power and it is nice to relive some extra stress of high cylinder head temps. I think this going to be my first upgrade.

The next upgrade is going to be a new set of injectors, IP uprated, and new Turbo. I'm thinking 285hp @2600rpm is my goal with 500-660ft-lbs of torque. Plus a new 6spd Fuller tranny... I also really still want the ARB airlockers. I really really want those but I'm not sure I'll the cash. But I think water-injection is the first upgrade.

This is my plan let's hope the cash flow works in my favor...

 

[Westech]

well 285 hp out of a multi fuel? I dont know how strong the crank and rods are. I know there multi in the 8x8 was over 200.. think it was in the 210 range. I would say go for it.. but dont be too upset if you blow the bottom out of the engine. Also I know the head bolts are not great at all... you will want to get some sort of heavd duty replacment for them.

 

[Rolling_Eudaimonia]

well 285 hp out of a multi fuel? I dont know how strong the crank and rods are. I know there multi in the 8x8 was over 200.. think it was in the 210 range. I would say go for it.. but dont be too upset if you blow the bottom out of the engine. Also I know the head bolts are not great at all... you will want to get some sort of heavd duty replacment for them.

I think it can handle it. For how long, that is the question, but I've been talking to a guy who thinks 285hp from LDT is very doable in a reliable package. He even thinks 325hp for short durations is possible. You have to do a lot of things including replacing many of the bolts, camshaft and few other minor things. But he's modified similar engines for tractor pulls and can do a reliable engine package at 285hp with 660ft-lbs of torque.

 

[mudguppy]

um, no. water injection does not add power - water injection is used to control egts by further cooling the intake charge lower than the inter-cooler (which should be your first step) can by itself.

water injection is best used when mixed with methanol. when methanol is mixed in (max ration of 50%!!!!) a small bit of additional fuel is available to supplement the diesel burn. but, still, it's used as a cooling agent more than any potential fueling additions.

whoever said you'll get 130hp from water injection has lied to you. that would mean that you have 130hp worth of fuel in excess that you couldn't burn before because of high intake charge temperatures. you really believe you're going to double your power output by adding water and stronger bolts? come on, this guy is taking you for a ride...

if you believe this guy, then i also have a tornado-charger and bottle of snake-oil fuel additive that (combined) is good for another 100hp.

 

[IHASFIP]

um, no. water injection does not add power - water injection is used to control egts by further cooling the intake charge lower than the inter-cooler (which should be your first step) can by itself.

water injection is best used when mixed with methanol. when methanol is mixed in (max ration of 50%!!!!) a small bit of additional fuel is available to supplement the diesel burn. but, still, it's used as a cooling agent more than any potential fueling additions.

whoever said you'll get 130hp from water injection has lied to you. that would mean that you have 130hp worth of fuel in excess that you couldn't burn before because of high intake charge temperatures. you really believe you're going to double your power output by adding water and stronger bolts? come on, this guy is taking you for a ride...

if you believe this guy, then i also have a tornado-charger and bottle of snake-oil fuel additive that (combined) is good for another 100hp.

Um, I think he is saying going from stock 130HP to 150-160 HP. Not making 130 HP on water meth alone. He said the 285HP figure saying if you re-vamped the IP, cam, and probably head bolts, head gaskets, and a few other internals.

D

 

[mudguppy]

Um, I think he is saying going from stock 130HP to 150-160 HP. Not making 130 HP on water meth alone. He said the 285HP figure saying if you re-vamped the IP, cam, and probably head bolts, head gaskets, and a few other internals.

D

oops. you're right!!!

i mis-read the OP post. i did think he was saying that the water would add 130hp.

now that i have learned how to read, i think the biggest limitation to that reliable 285hp motor will be compression ratio. i think that's going to hurt, a lot.

and is this guy going to make a custom cam? do other cams swap in? LDS?

 

[Rolling_Eudaimonia]

Yes, exactly 130hp is the peakpower that the M35 makes, but with a decent water-injection system running MW50 or even EW50 you can get usually about 15-20% increases in HP and about 5-10% in torque along with 10% in fuel consumption. There is an article in one diesel mags of the truck they did Dodge with a standard system and they got about 35hp increase at the wheels and 55Ftlbs of extra torque with the Water-injection system alone. I've been advocating water-injection for sometime on the M35. It is a good way to get extra power when you need it most without overly stressing the engine.

 

[mudguppy]

...There is an article in one diesel mags of the truck they did Dodge with a standard system and they got about 35hp increase at the wheels and 55Ftlbs of extra torque with the Water-injection system alone.....

one factor is different, though: modern trucks have intercoolers. the water/meth acts as a heat transfer medium for the air intake charge to better interact (read: transfer heat through) with the IC.

do you think you'll still see the advertised gains w/out an IC? not trying to shoot down your idea, just that for the same money (less?) you could add an intercooler to the system.

thoughts?

 

[Rolling_Eudaimonia]

oops. you're right!!!

i mis-read the OP post. i did think he was saying that the water would add 130hp.

now that i have learned how to read, i think the biggest limitation to that reliable 285hp motor will be compression ratio. i think that's going to hurt, a lot.

and is this guy going to make a custom cam? do other cams swap in? LDS?

I think he has a cam shop make them. I don't know I didn't really talk to him as much as my older brother has. I'm guessing that reducing the compression ratio is necessary so that means new pistons in radical upgrades maybe??? I'm not sure exactly what his plan would be for extreme power. But he seemed to indicate that making 250-285hp wouldn't be a difficult process. I just want a new camshaft because I want to flatten and increase the torque curve. I want something in the range of 660ft-lbs from 1200rpm to 2200rpm so I have peak torque in the peak operating range of the engine. When you're offroad usually run around 1200rpm to 2200rpm so it seems to me that you want the peak torque where you can use it. Peak torque is around 1600rpm too me that is bit too high and I'm getting the feeling that falls off way too quickly. So I want to get torque from lowest point in the recommended operating range to the midpoint 2200rpm.

The question can the LDT handle it? If not well I'll find a Cheap DT466 and build that up.

 

[mudguppy]

... I want something in the range of 660ft-lbs from 1200rpm to 2200rpm so I have peak torque in the peak operating range of the engine.... If not well I'll find a Cheap DT466 and build that up.

i think you just outlined a much more cost-effective path, right there. a standard rated dt should easily meet your torque needs. plus, a '466 with a [inline] p-pump is stoopid-easy to modify for power enhancements. aftermarket injectors and turbo upgrades are readily available. it's a sled pulling favorite for a reason!!


cams - my understanding of diesel cam upgrades is that they do not have as much effect on the power band as it does in a gasser. since the power is created by fueling, the IP fueling rates, static timing, dynamic timing, turbo map and flowrates, and the like have more effect on powerband than anything else. it seems that those that get aftermarket cams get them for egt reduction and turbo spool time improvements, not so much for power gains.

 

[Rolling_Eudaimonia]

i think you just outlined a much more cost-effective path, right there. a standard rated dt should easily meet your torque needs. plus, a '466 with a [inline] p-pump is stoopid-easy to modify for power enhancements. aftermarket injectors and turbo upgrades are readily available. it's a sled pulling favorite for a reason!!


cams - my understanding of diesel cam upgrades is that they do not have as much effect on the power band as it does in a gasser. since the power is created by fueling, the IP fueling rates, static timing, dynamic timing, turbo map and flowrates, and the like have more effect on powerband than anything else. it seems that those that get aftermarket cams get them for egt reduction and turbo spool time improvements, not so much for power gains.

I figure I'll buid this one up and see what happens when the engine pops. But I'll get a DT-466 and keep that in reserves. Well I'm going to upgrade the turbo's size, increase the injector size and amount of fuel so guy suggested that I would want to change the cam to optimize all the changes. He said I could do it without but if I changed the cam it would be easier to tune the engine for optimal performance. I was like okay you claim to be the expert.

To be honest the truth is that if you want to keep your truck running in the next 10-20 years from now I think we'll need to think about upgrading now to more modern engines. Supplies of 1950-60's truck parts aren't going to be around forever.

 

[pigpenkiwi]

What would propane inj do in a duce is it worth it or to much risk im working on a inter cooler set up for mine right now

 

[Rolling_Eudaimonia]

What would propane inj do in a duce is it worth it or to much risk im working on a inter cooler set up for mine right now

It would work. The truck already has inter-cooler, charged air cooling. Air to Air intercoolers aren't that efficient and if you use air-to-water you need a means to cool off and circulate the extra-water. Which is why I would go with water-injection (mw or ew 50 mixes) You have far fewer hoses and you can inject it form one central point in the mainfold. It isn't as an effective means to introduce MW50 in this manner but it can be done and easily. Propane I would be worried about getting the injection and timing correct so you don't have like one piston with all the propane going to it. I had toyed with the idea of adding nitro to the mix as well but really what would it do give you 10-15 seconds of 250hp extra before you blow the engine. I want a more sustainable gain in power.

 

[mudguppy]

i wouldn't put propane into an engine w/ 22:1 compression. you'll have to very closely regulate the amount of propane injected into the intake in order to control combustion pressure spikes. propane is just another fuel source, and if you don't provide more air, egt's will get out of control real quick.

...The truck already has inter-cooler, charged air cooling. ...

your deuce is already IC'd? why didn't you say that before? that makes a difference in the conversation. got pics?

 

[pigpenkiwi]

Im not done with set up yet still getting parts together and figuring out wer to mount it all i work at a wrecking yard so have axcess to all sorts of parts

 

[tm america]

each truck is different.some water injection will not help much since they are intercooled already and can put alot of fuel to it how they are . but on a ldt egt is way up there by design and fuel rate is set very conservitive .so adding water inlection has great potential.since you are fixing a weak link.which is the fuel rate -egt.i turned my fuel up and went from 7psi boost to about 28psi boost .it feels like a different truck.if i added water injection i could go up more with the fuel thus adding more boost.the rods are a weak link to but they fail more often from high rpms not load so as long as you keep your rpms down you should be good

 

[m16ty]

Jwaller (I think it was him) has water injection on his truck and offers the kits for sale. Don't know what the hp is but he says it has lots of power. The main problem with the LDT is EGTs. If you can control EGT (which water injecton will help) you can make lots of hp just by turning the fuel screw on the pump.

I will say this, you hear people on here bring up ideas about making big hp and lots of people say the bottom end and the head will come apart. To my kowledge nobody has built a high hp engine and blown it up because of it. It may or may not stand up to the pressure but I haven't seen anybody prove it. If it has happened somebody please inform me .

I know what some of you are going to say " Why don't you turn up the fuel alot and see what happens". I haven't seen enough evedence either way and I value my engine too much to take the risk. The naysayers could be right .

 

[yeager1]

If it has happened somebody please inform me.

I know someone who has blown several by turning up the fuel (forest service worker with dozens of new, spare engines to experiment with), but he did it with no pyrometer and may have burned them up due to heat, not load.

 

[OPCOM]

Yes, Jwaller's injection sytem - he knows alot about this stuff and can sell a kit. EGT is my enemy and it appears to be what is limiting the available power.

 

[rivired]

I just think its kinda off the wall some of these stories about how people are gonna turn there multifuel into a DT or Cummins..I highly doubt its gonna happen.

Possible? yes..But i cant even imagine how much sombody would charge for a CUSTOM CAM for a multifuel when people are charging 2-4 hundred dollars for filter systems.

Ud be better off buying a DT or cummins.

Theyd both outperform the Multi like day and night, in stock form and u wouldnt have to worry about melting em down.

Blasphemy! ..but hey id like to hear from the guy with the 300hp reliable multi deuce in this thread...??....?