002 vs 002a and 003 vs 003a GenSets

[joesco]

After another 5 day outage here in NH, I am now looking to upgrade my 6kw 3600rpm diesel generator to a more beefy one. Being a military vehicle junkie, I am leaning towards the MEP units. There seem to be a few local "dealers" on C/L and Ebay in Maine and NH that sell them fully tested, etc. One ad reads a MEP-002a as a 7kw unit with a peak of 10kw. I though they were 5kw outputs.

So my question are the "a" units upgrades from the non "a" units? What are the major differences between the 002 and the 002a and the 003 and the 003a? Thanks!

 

[Speddmon]

I don't think that there is any such animal as an MEP-002 or 003,they are all "a" units (I could be wrong though). The 002a is 5 KW and the 003a is 10 KW.

The guy running the ad is trying to snowball somebody, it's a 5 KW unit. There is no "peak" rating on these sets, but the starting capacity (peak rating on civilian sets) is an arguable one at best. Most people give them 200% of full capacity for starting capacity, I would guess closer to 300% capacity.

 

[doghead]

Pretty sure I read 300% on some specs I once found.

 

[steelandcanvas]

Pretty sure I read 300% on some specs I once found.

 

[Carl_in_NH]

What are you planning on running? Anything your civi 6KW generator can power, it's likely an MEP-002A can run 24/7 without breaking a sweat - and do it with less fuel than an MEP-003A would require. While extended runtime is nice to have - and therefore it's good to size the genset closely to the load you plan to power, I went with the bigger 003A and let it refill the day tank by pumping fuel via the AUX pump from our two 275 gallon oil tanks in the basement; beats the heck out of having to run to the gas station every day to get more fuel. The 10KW set will run everything we need, and many things we don't need - and even run the central air if we've got an outage in the summer. It will drink about twice the amount of fuel per hour the 002A takes in.

In December '08, we were out for a full week; this last wind storm Thursday night wasn't bad for us at all - just 7.5 hours. By the time I got the generator hooked up in the morning and the heat going, the power came back on. Figures. Cheapest way to insure you don't have long outages is to be ready with all the gear, then Mr. Murphy goes elsewhere.

 

[emmado22]

Watch out for wet stacking with a diesel genny.. Bigger (but unused capacity) is not allways better..

 

[rat4spd]

Watch out for wet stacking with a diesel genny.. Bigger (but unused capacity) is not allways better..

If that was ever a problem with an 003a, and that's a big if, a couple of space heaters would take care of that.

An 002a will get you by comfortably with the essentials. An 003a will get you by with pretty much everything. It's all a matter of how much diesel you want to buy.

 

[joesco]

Thanks guys! In 08 we were out 7 days. The storm last week we were out 5 days. But after these two outages and not being able to use the dishwasher, washer and electric dryer, the Mrs. gets a bit annoyed. With December 2012 not far away and from what I heard the sun spots may even begin to affect the grid as early as early 2011, I want to be prepared, JUST IN CASE IT REALLY DOES HAPPEN.

Fuel should not be an issue in an extended outage as I have a 275 and 335 home heating tanks and two 55 gallon drums.

My issue is more of a financial concern. It appears, "resellers" are selling the 003a for about $700.00 more than the 002a. The question is, is it worth the additioinal expense???

And just to confirm. the MEP-002a is 5kw and MEP-003a is 10kw?? Thanks again!

 

[joesco]

Prices from resellers in Maine, NY and NH are running ....

MEP-002a $2500.00
MEP-003a $3250.00

"Fully tested" and some have spin-on filter conversions. Hours seem to be under 2000.

 

[Bill W]

I'm wondering out loud here but won't a 10kw running at half load burn less fuel than a 5kw running at full load!?!?

Also with everything I've read on these gensets is that if you went with non mil specs these units are more like 7kw (002A) and 12kw(003A) units

 

[jas67]

My issue is more of a financial concern. It appears, "resellers" are selling the 003a for about $700.00 more than the 002a. The question is, is it worth the additioinal expense???

And just to confirm. the MEP-002a is 5kw and MEP-003a is 10kw?? Thanks again!

What are you loads? How do you heat, cook, etc? If you can get by with the MEP-002A -- then that is the better fit. Lower purchase price, less fuel, smaller, less weight, and less chance of wet-stacking. The 002A will run a window AC unit or two if needed as well. If you live in hurricane country, where AC may be "required", the MEP-003A will run most central AC units. Personally, where I live, we do get some nasty hot/humid weather in the summer, but I don't consider AC to be a critical load during an outage. The refridgerator and freezer, are. In the winter, heat is, as it is more than just comfort, it is keeping the pipes from freezing.

I used a cheapo box-store 5KW troybilt to get through the ice storm of Dec '07 that took out power for 24 hours (long for here), and it ran my well-pump, oil burner, circulator pump (hydronic heating from the oil burner, also feeds indirect hot water heater), and two refridgerators and a freezer just fine. I actually think that one of the MEP-016B/D (unsure which, listed as B, but have Yanmar engines, which may make them D) may fit the bill for me (rated at 3KW) that I just won on a GL auction. I got three of them for the going GL rate of a single MEP-002A. Plus at 440lbs, they are much easier to move around than the >1000lb MEP-002A. Don't get me wrong, the 002A is a great generator; I just think it might be more than I need. Now, If I can get a good runningn one for around $700, I'll probably buy it. That said, I did win an Onan DJB, which is a civilian 6KW set with a similar (but actually, smaller displacement engine), and a different (single phase only) head. I'm sure the DJB has less starting capacity than the MEP-002A, given the less conservative power rating of 6KW, and smaller (60cid, vs. 72cid) engine. I got the DJB for a little less than $500 at a GL auction two years ago. Now, that said, it isn't self contained like the MEP's. No frame around it, no skid, no fuel tank. It is meant for a permanent installation. It has a bad lift pump, but cranks over, and should run once I replace the pump (which I have). In two years, I haven't had time to get to this project of replacing the pump, and mounting it on a trailer, or frame with wheels. I did, however locate a Chinese-clone of a Yanmar-powered genset that runs run for $200. That is what I'm going to use if another storm hits before I get the MEP-016B/D units.

One other thing I like about the 016's that I'm getting, is that the Yanmar engines are quite simple. No lift pump required, no glow plugs required. I don't know if they 016 uses a lift pump or not, they might, looking at the fuel tank location, but I know that the Yanmars can be easily gravity fed in the event of a lift pump failure. I suppose that the DJB could be too, but I haven't tried. My goal is to get it up and running this spring. I don't know about the MEP's, but from what I understand, the DJx series Onans need quite a bit if preheat to get started when it is cold. The Yanmars (and even the clone that I have) will start relatively easily, even down into the single digits. They are a "cold-start" diesel with direct injection, and compression release.

Thinking of lift pumps, the MEP's do have redundent lift electric pumps (the DJx, mechanical ones that are a b***h to bleed), and as another poster mentioned, and aux pump to draw from a large fuel tank. If you heat with fuel oil, and your tanks are convenient to where you will run your generator, then you can connect one right up to your fuel oil tanks. I would use a top-draw line, don't connect into the line that comes off the valve on the bottom. This will greatly reduce the likelyhood of clogging your fuel filters with sediment.

In any case, read some other the other generator threads on this forum, as there is a lot of good information. If you are going to bid on them through GL, then if at all possible, try to preview the units you intend to bid on, and take notes (and even pictures). You will not be able to start them, but you can at least check for missing parts.

Good luck with your generator hunt, and post pictures when you find one!

 

[Carl_in_NH]

The question of fuel use between the two size generators is because of the additional rotating mass of the larger set; it’s a 4 cylinder engine instead of two – in addition to the larger alternator. All that mass requires fuel to keep in motion – even when not delivering power to the load.

Wet stacking, while not to be totally disregarded, is much more an illness that plagues water cooled diesels, and not air cooled engines used on MEP-002A and MEP-003A gensets. I’ve run my 003A over a wide range of loads – from nothing to full, and not had any issues with unburned fuel. In these smaller, air cooled gensets, getting the size matched to the load is much more of a fuel economy issue than one of wet stacking.

The MEP-002A is rated at 5KW, and the MEP-003A is rated at 10KW. These are the 24/7, high altitude, high ambient temperature ratings the units can sustain without any difficulty for the operational life of the unit. As others have stated, it’s likely this rating would be two or three times higher on a set sold on the civilian market – as ‘surge’ or ‘starting’ power. Properly maintained, these units will last in a backup application for a very long time, and not a few hundred hours like a splash-oiled Briggs and Stratton powered unit from the bigbox store.

With an MEP-003A and a proper feed setup (and intelligent load selection – like not running the electric dryer and oven at the same time as the well pump), the generator is likely to provide all the comforts you’d need during a prolonged outage. I found the difference in cost and fuel consumption between the smaller and larger units to be worth it for my application - so I went with the larger unit.

Don’t believe all the cruft about the grid failing in 2012 because of solar activity; while flares / CMEs have caused disruptions in the past, it’s not typical – besides this being a very weak cycle for solar activity. Someone is likely trying to make money by fear mongering – either to sell a lame movie or bad legislation to an uninformed public. In New Hampshire, we’ve got enough weather related reasons to have a generator without worrying about the fringe.

 

[rat4spd]

I've had my house with the 2 ton A/C, one fridge, two freezers, and two window air units, as well as the 1500W of lights in my shop, AND it's 2 ton A/C unit running off the 003, cycling between 25 and 55%.

To me, it's a no brainer. If you want just the essentials, an 002 is great. For me, if I'm without power for an extended period, I want to run as though I never lost power, at least until my wallet slows me down.

 

[Isaac-1]

As has already been mentioned the key is what loads do you need to run, in particular what big loads do you have? Electric heating? Water heater, electric stove or oven, you have already mentioned electric clothes dryer and dishwasher. If you don't have an electric water heater the MEP-002 should be able to handle running all of the above with a bit of reasonable load management / task switching (need electric hot water for a bath, turn off everything else except a couple of lights for half an hour while the water heater runs). The electric dryer will be your biggest draw here, a properly working modern electric dryer should draw around 22 amps on high, or just over 5,000 watts, turning it down from its highest heat level should shave a good bit off of this. Personally I think if this is a winter weather even the MEP-002 would be able to safely output a good bit more than its rated 5000 watts as that rating is at 120 degrees F, and would not worry about running a dryer even on high, plus running a few light bulbs to see by (maybe even running washer and dryer at the same time with the dryer on medium heat, just keep a close eye on the amp meter). For many small generators a top load washing machine is a big problem due to the surging current needed, with its 300% starting motor rating (I think for up to 1 minute, but may be 30 seconds, either way its is MUCH, MUCH MORE than the similar spec. civilian units) , you should not have a probblem with any of the MEP's. Now if you want to run the dryer, while running another load of wash, while doing the dishes, etc. then perhaps the MEP-003 is more in line with your needs, particularly if you have an electric water heater also.

Ike

 

[jas67]

Some people have different concepts as to what loads actually NEED to be run during an outage. I do have an electric clothes dryer, but if laundry needs to be done during an outage, you can always hang the stuff to dry. We, in fact had to wash my daughter's, who was 3 at the time of the last outage, bedding, due to an "accident", but we just hung it on a line in the basement to dry.

As for running like there is no outage until your wallet stops you; it might not be your wallet that stops you, if there is no fuel to buy, then there is no fuel, whether you have money or not. If you keep an MEP-003A running 24x7, it could easily burn 100 gallons of fuel during a 4-5 day outage. This could pose a logistical problem during an extended outage caused by a natural (or man made) disaster.

Maybe an MEP-003A to run when you need to have the big loads on, and a smaller one for the rest of the time (or a nice big battery bank and inverters, as I have done).

 

[jas67]

Oh, and something else to keep in mind for extended outages, that is to keep supplies on hand to do maintenance during the emergency (oil, and filters, etc0.. This is especially important for those running box-store cheapo gas-powered units. The TroyBilt that I had, specified a 50 hour oil change interval (yes, only 2 days). I think the oil change interval on my Yanmar clone is 100 hours, still, during an extended outage like those that happen during hurricanes, I would need to change the oil during the outage.

 

[emmado22]

I sold tons of 5 gallon cans to people when Home Depot and Lowes in my are ran out for all the people buying generators. People thought they were gold. I only charged my normal price for the 5 gallon plastic cans though.

 

[Speddmon]

Some people have different concepts as to what loads actually NEED to be run during an outage. I do have an electric clothes dryer, but if laundry needs to be done during an outage, you can always hang the stuff to dry. We, in fact had to wash my daughter's, who was 3 at the time of the last outage, bedding, due to an "accident", but we just hung it on a line in the basement to dry.

As for running like there is no outage until your wallet stops you; it might not be your wallet that stops you, if there is no fuel to buy, then there is no fuel, whether you have money or not. If you keep an MEP-003A running 24x7, it could easily burn 100 gallons of fuel during a 4-5 day outage. This could pose a logistical problem during an extended outage caused by a natural (or man made) disaster.

Maybe an MEP-003A to run when you need to have the big loads on, and a smaller one for the rest of the time (or a nice big battery bank and inverters, as I have done).

I agree with rat4spd, I run mine like there was never an outage at all. Not that I can't handle having the lights and AC off for a day or two. But it all goes back to an age old saying, that still rings true today, and all you "macho" men out there can boast and brag all you want about it not being true, but anybody who is married know's it's true. That saying is, "if momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!" And truth be told, my babies momma does not like the power being off, and does not like not having AC, even for a little bit!

 

[joesco]

Oh, and something else to keep in mind for extended outages, that is to keep supplies on hand to do maintenance during the emergency (oil, and filters, etc0.. This is especially important for those running box-store cheapo gas-powered units. The TroyBilt that I had, specified a 50 hour oil change interval (yes, only 2 days). I think the oil change interval on my Yanmar clone is 100 hours, still, during an extended outage like those that happen during hurricanes, I would need to change the oil during the outage.

Excellent point as I had to change my current diesel generator oil once during this past week's outage (every 100 hours). So fuel, filters, and a nice side arm is a must for a long duration outage!

Again, thanks for all the comments and advice!

 

[rat4spd]

As for running like there is no outage until your wallet stops you; it might not be your wallet that stops you, if there is no fuel to buy, then there is no fuel, whether you have money or not. If you keep an MEP-003A running 24x7, it could easily burn 100 gallons of fuel during a 4-5 day outage. This could pose a logistical problem during an extended outage caused by a natural (or man made) disaster.

I live in the midwest, in a state that has less people than Chicago. I'm guessing 90% of the civilian populations vehicles and generators are gasoline. Unless the trucking industry has a run on diesel, I'm betting I'd be OK. We don't have large scale natural disaster like hurricanes to worry about, unless you count flooding. Mainly our issues are storms which are somewhat localized.

Then again, there's always the Zombie Apocalypse, but then we'd have more to worry about than generating electricity.