M35a2 Timing

[JGolden]

Hello
I replaced a bad injector cap on my truck a while back and i lined all the ticks up instead of having the injector cap gear (red notch) one off the arrow a little (when the advance unit timing mark is lined up). I also remember turning the engine to line up the marks on the crank shaft damper. It ran slow and had a little more smoke and vibration. Now I'm going back and following the LDS-465-1 trouble shooting manual. Since i read it was a good one to follow.

Timing the fuel injector pump is no problem.
My concerns are:
1) I don't know what engine i have for sure.
I think i see a He... (assuming Hercules). Plate is stamped 4-89 pretty sure this was the year it was overhauled. TD is cast into the engine block.
It looks like my other engines which are 134hp, turbo-charged, non-whistler.
I thought these were LDT-465-(something) but the marks on the Crankshaft says only LDS and LD. the best i can see.

2) There is a deep "V" scored into the Crank shaft damper about 130 degrees from the 3 main timing marks. The rockers feel a little looser around the timing marks than they do at the "V". The V lines up when the first cylinder intake valve just closes.

This might be trivial stuff to figure out but Ive never done this and just need help getting the right mark on the crankshaft damper.
Thanks for Everything.

 

[gringeltaube]

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It looks like my other engines which are 134hp, turbo-charged, non-whistler.
I thought these were LDT-465-(something) but the marks on the Crankshaft says only LDS and LD. the best i can see.
...........................................

Soooo....., then it has a turbo (any model)...? and your truck is a M35A2 model which would exclude the early 427 cu.in. engine...? => Your options are: LDT465-1C, LDT465-1D or (unlikely) the LDS465-1 or 1A. Either one of these use the last of the 3 marks, in the sense of rotation. (upper one in your picture, painted RED in diagram)

......There is a deep "V" scored into the Crank shaft damper about 130 degrees from the 3 main timing marks.

Forget that mark!



Edit: just discovered something rare and interesting, after a closer look at your picture #4.
Let's hear if others had noticed this as well....????


G.

 

[Castle Bravo]

LTD 465 and LD-645-1 ?

 

[gringeltaube]

Exactly... LD-645-1 !!! Must be the rare SUPER-NON-TURBO-MULTIFUEL version!?

G.

 

[m-35tom]

but none of this matters as you do not use any of the marks on the pulley to install the HH. to replace the HH, you line up the red tooth only and do not move anything until you put the new HH in. how did you get it out or back in without bending the drive gear cover?

tom

 

[JGolden]

Thanks for the pic gringeltaube.
I put in a used HH (off one of my other trucks) very carefully without removing the IP. It would bind on the gear cover but seemed to eventually slip in if the IP was turned close enough to expose the teeth. The truck does 45mph (did 55mph before cracking the HH) and its been a head ache ever since. A few months ago I pulled the IP and lined up all the ticks, thinking the pump was out of timing. Then i decided to make sure the engine was in timing with the pump since i had it all apart. I don't remember what line i set it to since the crank has typos on it. I have just reassembled it again and its running considerably smoother and feels like more power in low gears. It hits 51mph downhill or after about a mile of hard acceleration. It must be a lack of fuel to the engine since i refuse to believe the IP is shot?.. It hits 2600 RPM in lower gears just fine. In 4th and 5th the truck is just slow due to lack of power. I have looked at and sprayed the injectors with cleaner and they looked fine. Nothing seems to be dragging on the drive train since it coast normally and no abnormally hot hubs. I pulled the tank fuel pump and saw a small amount of junk on the screen. Then it got dark outside. I guess now its going to be checking all the filters (they should be good). I have added fuel injector cleaner in the tank and half a new tank of diesel. The other half is around 9 months old but didn't seem foul. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks
Josh

 

[gimpyrobb]

So to get more in-depth, I was reading the LDS trouble shooting manual and it says to time the IP to the motor, line up the crankshaft damper to the timing pointer. Check to see if the timing mark on the advance unit hub is lined up with the pointer(this is under the 4 bolt window). Then to check and see if the HH is lined up with the red scribed tooth.

I have seen where the red tooth and the advance mark do not line up. How do you fix that? Do you need to pull the quill gear to get them right or is there another way?

 

[m-35tom]

chris, that is not correct, the red tooth does not line up when the other 2 marks do. the balancer mark and the ip timing mark under small cover are for injection timing. the scribed red tooth is not for timing. it is only for removal of HH.

tom

 

[Floridianson]

Tom resepctfully I feel it does have to do with timming. The only reason it does not line up with the timming marks is what I thought was the advancement. The HH has and advancement and then the Gov/ fly weights adds to that advancement as the motor picks up speen to go into full advancement. Like a car we have base timming then the advancement kicks in and we go to full advancement or total timming. Looks like ours is 12* with Gov/ advance weights adding another 8* for a total advancement of 20*.

 

[m-35tom]

james, it has NOTHING to do with timing. when the scribed tooth lines up with the pointer inside the shut off cover, that is the ONLY position the HH can be removed without damage to the other parts of the pump. if it says anything to the contrary in any manual, it is a misprint.

chris, it should say check to see that the red tooth is visable, not lined up with anything.
if the timing pointers, (there are only 2 of them) are lined up and the red tooth is not visable, you are 180 out.

tom

 

[Floridianson]

Ok not going to argue over but i think if you put a * wheel on the crank the pointer on the HH will line up with red scribed at around 12* before TDC as per TM's. Meaning that it does have something to do with timming. When the harmonic Bal. lines and 4 bolt window line up the HH head shows the 12* by being one tooth off to the rear on some pumps. Correct we do not remove the HH head unless the red scribe is on the pointed but I never argued this.

 

[m-35tom]

oh, sorry i mis read your post. i agree everything on the engine has something to do with timing, even if it is completely irrelevant to timing the IP as the red tooth is. well even it is in a vaguesort of way as it must be visable even though not lined up with anything.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Thanks everyone for their input. We lined up the harmonic bal. and checked the disk was lined up on the advance window. Then made sure the red tooth was visible. The motor didn't start right up, it needed a whif of ether. Once we got it running it seemed ok. Plenty of power and it sounded GOOD. Buff did say that it smoked more than originally though. I think that since we used an older IP with the rebuilt head on it, he is going to run some pure diesel with ATF(or sea foam) through it for a few hour drive. We'll see how it does after that and maybe tinker with adjusting the timing where the 3 bolts hold the gear on. Since he has an LDS block like I do, I will line up my timing and see where all the indicators are at. We might try to set all his indicators to where mine are and see what that gets us. If I were a smart man, I would have checked those settings yesterday! Again, thanks for the help and support.

 

[Wildchild467]

I have a similiar issue. I have 5000 miles on it since i bought it in april. I have had times this summer where it ran awesome and then sometimes it dosnt run so good. I adjusted the valves (some were tight), checked my intake pump (hight was set 3 inches to high per TM), checked fuel lines, replaced the line under the crossmember because it had a small dent), replaced filters 50 miles ago. I know these trucks like to be driven and i think the 20 miles to work and driving it all day would clean it out and i dont think its a problem with that.

Last night i read a lot of posts about checking the timing and read the TM. My engine says its a LD-465-1 and it has a turbo installed by uncle sam (so i guess it was originally a non turbo). My timing pointer on the harmonic balancer should be lined up with the "LDS and LDT" timing mark and the advance pointer should be lined up under the inspection cover. Seems staight forward. So if those marks are lined up, that should be my 20 degrees of advance i believe. well my timing looks to be a little off. Could this be the cause of my timing problems. maybe uncle sam was a little slippy adjusting the timing when they put the turbo on?

The picture of the harmonic balancer hows the timing difference when the POINTER ON THE ADVANCE INSPECTION COVER IS LINED UP.

The picture of the advance pointer shows the difference when the POINTER OF THE HARMONIC BALANCER IS LINED UP.

I tried taking the best pics i could trying to avoid paralax error. What do you guys think? i believe the timing is a little retarded.

If it matters, i get about 8PSI of boost at full throttle at 2300rpm

1. My questions are: is this enough to cause a lack in power?
2. Could the advance be not working correctly and not advancing enough?
3. I still want to clean injectors even though injector temps are within 8 degrees of eachtoher.

 

[m-35tom]

is your fdc still hooked up? that can cause changes in power. 8 psi boost is low so it would have low power, 9 psi is stock and without a pyro i would go to at least 11 psi for now. recheck the markings on the balancer for LDT, that is where you should be.

tom

 

[Wildchild467]

The FDC is not hooked up. Uncle sam bypassed it. When i was running 50% WMO, i could hit 10psi.

The marks on the balancer are the same for the LDT-465 and the LDS-465, you were just being specific, correct? I have to search more maybe, but i dont know how hard of a job it is to set the timing. pull the small cover off infront of the injection pump i know.

how possible is it that something in the mechanical timing advance could be messed up? just thinking that because a couple times this summer it ran awesome and then some days it was sluggish on top end. couldnt that be effect if the advance was not working correctly?

The pointer and timing mark that are on the injection pump that i took a picture of, does that mark work with the mechanical advance or is it hooked directly to the same shaft that is driven from the crankshaft? what im getting at is if the advance weights were sticking somehow, could that give me an in-accurate timing mark?

 

[Wildchild467]

It is a Code E pump by the way if that matters.

 

[m-35tom]

so there are no lines at all to the fdc?? i doubt that the advancer would stick, but anything is possible. different fuels are going to give you noticeable power changes without the fdc.

tom

 

[Floridianson]

Yes you can be a little off the marks. That is why the pump gear has three bolts and three slots and one bolt in the center. When installing the pump you leave the three bolts loose and the gear showing the slots to the right or counterclock wise. With the har. bal. right on the mark then you use inner nut that is in the center of the gear to bring back you pump four window marks dead on. then tighten down three bolts on the gear. Then you HH head should be one tooth off to rear.
There were three spring pressures out there in different pumps something like 65lb 55lb and 100lb. The spring weights can effect performance.
I am do believing the one tooth off to rear is 12* and once the motor starts then fly weights start comming into play till we get higher rpm and a total of 20*

With out putting the pump on a stand we are kinda out of luck to check for proper advance and if it is comming in to early or to late. Just have to hope who ever set the pump up did it right then all we can do it tweek main fuel and test pressures from intank and lift pump.

 

[m-35tom]

james, each tooth of the HH would be 24° at crankshaft.

tom