Insane home Water/meth injection...

[jwaller]

Makes sense... the Multifuel is timed early to help burn the low grade fuels it's designed to still run on. The methanol has a faster flame front propagation rate like propane, and the cylinder pressures would rise too quickly.

I'm surprised more guys on here haven't lifted heads or shaken engines apart with propane/meth.

But the water with minimal propane seems to be doing well? What amount of water are you injecting and at what boost/throttle/EGT are you triggering it?

The water system works like a dream. I have it set to come on at 12psi so the system doesn't use as much water and under 12-15 I don't need it anyway bc the egt's are not high enough to worry about

My system has an electronic progressive controller so as far as flow rates I can't tell you, but my system as a very high pressure pump and it's all metered using a 3 bar map sensor.

 

[Heath_h49008]

So, are you noticing a power increase from the water, or does the water just keep the engine happy with a turned up pump?

Any mileage change, power gained/lost to the injection?

 

[jwaller]

So, are you noticing a power increase from the water, or does the water just keep the engine happy with a turned up pump?
Any mileage change, power gained/lost to the injection?

it does both. I can run more fuel at the same egt, or I can keep a lower egt with the same fuel.

no real change in mileage bc your using more fuel for more power and more power doesn't mean much with these trucks except acceleration. it's not going to change your top speed or drag or anything important.

So I like it because I can get more power with the same egt's and not blow the motor and with my 1100 tires and 0.69 OD and a heavy deuce. I need a little more power to keep it humming down the hwy at 70mph.

 

[Heath_h49008]

Sounds perfect to me.

I'm planning on 395s and one of those kits myself.

 

[Flat Black]

many of your questions are answered here:

Snow Performance: FAQ diesel

and the rest can be found on popular diesel forums such as "cumminsforum" or "dieselplace" where this topic has been discussed ad nauseum for years and years....

All been figured out for you, all you have to do is figure out how to make one fit your truck, whether that be from a company like Snow or a home made version thereof..

There is nothing wrong with injecting water and meth into a diesel engine. Its been done tens of thousands of times.

 

[Heath_h49008]

But...

These multi-fuels have some eccentricities in how they burn. I want to make sure 30%meth won't shake the engine apart. jwaller knows his stuff, so I'm listening. The formulas I'm finding seem to indicate around 20% by mass water to fuel.

Here in Michigan I have no choice but to find a way to run 30%, or not run it at all in the winter. Ice just won't flow.

 

[jesusgatos]

The water system works like a dream. I have it set to come on at 12psi so the system doesn't use as much water and under 12-15 I don't need it anyway bc the egt's are not high enough to worry about

My system has an electronic progressive controller so as far as flow rates I can't tell you, but my system as a very high pressure pump and it's all metered using a 3 bar map sensor.

Would like to hear more about the parts you used. Sounds like a cool setup.

 

[Heath_h49008]

I have solenoid valves and injector nozzles... 24V compatible!!

Seriously, I should be able to put this together for $200...

Part numbers to follow.... I'm trying to pick injector sizes, and flow rate required.

 

[Ride2Kill]

Nice man! I cant wait to see how it works. Are you going to use a soda keg? Id toy around with this also, but Im away from home for another two months.

 

[Ride2Kill]

I'm trying to pick injector sizes, and flow rate required.

I looked at the snow performance website. They talk about their systems using about 7 gal in 500 miles when towing. I don't know what speed traveled, but if you say they drove at 56 mph for 500 miles, thats 8.928 hours. Divide 7 by 8.928 hours and thats .784 gal per hour. Id try a nozzle around that flow rate first and see what it dose, but thats just me. Im sure someone else has a much better way of doing the math or figuring the number you need.

 

[Loco_Hosa]

Well, I am subscribed. Very interested in how this goes.

 

[Heath_h49008]

I looked at the snow performance website. They talk about their systems using about 7 gal in 500 miles when towing. I don't know what speed traveled, but if you say they drove at 56 mph for 500 miles, thats 8.928 hours. Divide 7 by 8.928 hours and thats .784 gal per hour. Id try a nozzle around that flow rate first and see what it dose, but thats just me. Im sure someone else has a much better way of doing the math or figuring the number you need.

All of the math formulas I'm finding are for gasoline engines. The sites that have kits for diesels don't give injector sizes at specific pressures, or flow rates...

I'm looking at these...

Nozzle: 3178K76 McMaster-Carr

Solenoid valve: McMaster-Carr

That combo should be good for about 10GPH @ 100psi....

After that all we need is a Hobbes switch set at about 12psi, and the Keg. One fuse, and I do believe the Hobbes is a simple diaphram contact switch that should run fine on 24V.

That's it... one stage... 10 Gallons per activated hour. The Kegs hold 3, 5, or 10 gallons in the common sizes... so 20minutes to 1 hour of continuous use depending upon your right foot.

Can somebody please check my logic here?

 

[Ride2Kill]

On the highway, my deuce burns about 5 gal per hour. Your most likely not going to have the truck at WOT the whole time, but when you do its going to use alot more than 5 gph. Even if it was 10 gph at WOT, would you want to add as much water as you do fuel?

 

[JOEDEUCE]

Just a quick thought but wouldn't too much water mess up the way the M.A.N. cycle engine works by cooling the fuel and slowing down the ignition process?

 

[Heath_h49008]

I figured this would be under max power... on-ramps, heavy towing, and stoplights.... this is the big dog max system that keeps you from blowing the engine when you have the screw cranked and the peddle on the bolt. I have been looking for better numbers than 80lbs per hour for the LDS @180hp. 80lbs/hour equals 10gallons of fuel per hour at max rated HP output. But I have no ratio of cooling-water/fuel for diesel! (Let alone for Hypercycle/Multifuel) I figured the ratio would be closer to 15%-20% water to fuel, but the Cummins folks seem to say otherwise.

You can activate at a lower boost pressure, and run a smaller nozzle for continuous use. But if you are saying you burn 5 gallons per hour at 60 mph... 12 MPG nice! What EGTs are you seeing? And at what boost psi? Nothing stops us from running less.

I must have these numbers run too high. I pulled them from the Cummins and Powerstroke modders on some other sites. If I can find a good water/fuel ratio for diesel, I can easily pick a smaller nozzle. These guys were running these flow rates on 7.3l trucks on the highway. 7.3l x 60ci/l=438cid... we run 465cid at a similar rpm level (they redline at 3350, we do at 2800, so I know it isn't a great comparison).

 

[JOEDEUCE]

@Heath.. if ya want to see something crazy, check out Heath Diesels land speed record holding 6.5 diesel...he used pure water in his injection system, during his run his engine consumed more water than diesel. Was a crazy build none the less. Heath diesel built a 500hp 6.5 turbo civi engine. Everybody calls the 6.5 civi engine a pile of crap and the powerstroke and cummins guys crack on it every chance they get. 500 hp isn't much in the world of diesel performance these days isn't bad considering the 6.5 civi's bad history... long story short, even an engine plauged with electrical problems, cracked blocks, and broken cranks, can be made to run if you have determination and money.

 

[Heath_h49008]

All I'm looking for is a cheap way folks can keep their EGTs down on the highway, and keep their cylinders clean when running WMO and lots of idling.

Pure water should be safe and effective method.... if I can get the ratio right, and keep the parts list short, common, and cheap. I have no illusions about cranking an LDT/LDS much over 200hp.

 

[JOEDEUCE]

@Heath.... sounds like you are making good head way with getting everything figured out. 200hp sounds like a safe mark to shoot for. I need to do a lil research myself....I need to run some numbers and identify which engine I have....the the was overhauled in 1989 by the millitary....not sure if the engine was swapped ... I'm hoping for the LDS.
Sorry to get off topic with the the discussion of the civi 6.5. But back to the multifuel, I like the multi stage injection setup, sounds more versatile, and more engine friendly.

 

[Heath_h49008]

Staged works... it would just be cumulative effect of one small + "x" other small stages. My only thought on keeping it at one is, cost rises as (1+x)(cost of nozzle and hobbes switch)=$...

I'm cheap.

Also, if we are only compensating for the slight increase in fuel burn from turning the 140hp stock LDT past about 190hp that the block and cooling system is designed to handle.

I think for the vast majority of guys who just want enough safe power to run 65-70 on the highway, ans to be able to handle some hills without going over 1200, one stage might be enough. But hey, we can always expand the system. The tank and primary lines would already be in place. Another stage in parallel would be easy as a sorority girl on Halloween.

 

[JOEDEUCE]

very true Heath.... I'm thinking about going with a progressive controller of some sort. But ....that may prove to be useless given the circumstances surrounding the turbo and its ability to build part throttle boost. I'm going to start by getting an EGT and boost gauge and see what I'm working with....