5th wheel Deuce or Converter Dolly?

[st8drumz]

Need y'alls advice/knowledge/expertise/opinions. Gotta pick up an M129 and get it from WI to MI. Have two different scenarios, being that the 5 ton tractor I was planning to borrow/use is suddenly out of commission. Neither of which are ideal, to be sure but here they are:

1 - Take the bed off my deuce and put on the 5th wheel that I picked up and convert it into a tractor. The M45 was one of the two deuce tractors (that I'm aware of) that used the same frame (longer of the 2) as the M35a2. If I take the bed off, remove the bumpers (and possibly the pintle hook), that gives me 18" of clearence from the back of the truck to the landing gear, ASSUMING that the hitch placement puts the kingpin in the center of the two rear axles on which I run singled out 11.00s. My thought is to extend the air/electrical by extension hoses from the rear glad hands hook ups and longer intervehicular cable, keeping everything out of the way of the trailer articulation via zip ties, etc.

here are my questions on this method:

- is 18" of clearence from the back of the trailer to the landing gear enough?

- the 5th wheel I have is fairly tall (I know NOTHING about various different military or even civillian 5th wheels) and, more importantly, the space between the frame brackets is only 33.5" and both the deuce and m105 (next scenario) trailer frames are 34" wide (see pics). Here's the question - to get that to "fit" on the deuce, I would have to make some brackets out of 3" or even 3.5" angle Iron and bolt them down on the top of the frame rails? This, of course would effectively raise the whole hitch up that much. I have seen another member do this on an M200 generator trailer (rest in peace Microjeep) converter dolly build but, to my knowledge, that was just for moving his trailer around on his property, not highway use. Your thoughts and opinions?

- any perceivable issues with extending the air lines with gladhand to gladhand extension hoses, of course making sure that nothing is kinked, impinged, or tightly bent? I am aware that the lack of tractor protection valve and other normal tractor/trailer "plumbing" makes this less than ideal - this is just to get the thing home.


Scenario 2 - I have an m105 trailer with no box that could be turned into a converter dolly, using the mounting bracket method mentioned above. I would put dually 11.00s on it as well. Now, I know it's a 1.5 ton trailer and, if military precedent applies, that is OFFROAD capacity making it 3 ton ONROAD capacity (correct me if I'm wrong). Now, sice I also know next to nothing about the 105 trailers as I only picked this one up late Fri night (tried to find an m200 generator trailer), I had noticed a second set of springs (see pic) bolted on top of the main set. Being that there are "stops" on the trailer, I was wondering if that is stock or if that was an extra "add-on" at some point. Now, I know that a "tractor" would be better than towing with a converter dolly so......

my questions on this method:

- is the m105 trailer at 1.5 ton enough to build a dolly for the purpose of getting this UNLOADED trailer home? The military dollies (m197 and 19 are 6 and 8 ton respectively but those are for pulling LOADED trailers, I just need it for UNLOADED highway use. BTW, the m129 is 15k dry weight. I do have a CDL and am aware of the issues with multiple articulation points and unloaded trailers

- IF the second set of springs in the pic is NOT stock, would it stand to reason/help if I replaced it with a "beefier" set of springs?

- any other "percieved" issues, other than what is mentioned?

Thank you all in advance for your comments and advice! Btw, YES I have already thought about having it transported but that would be double what I paid - I would only consider this option as an absolute emergency LAST resort.

 

[98G]

Since you'll be mounting the 5th wheel plate either way, I'd mount it to the deuce and remove several possible points of failure.

Last spring I moved a similar semi trailer on a converter dolly from KS to IL to NM behind my M925.

I don't know that an M105 is up to being a converter dolly. I don't know that it isn't, but I'd either use a real converter dolly or make one from an M200, which we know has been done successfully.

Operation at hwy speed on public roads (you didn't say how far) demands a good margin of safety, and the 5th wheel on the deuce has less potential for catastrophic failure than the 5th wheel on the 105.

I see no real problem with daisy chaining air lines. Each additional connection is an another potential point-of-failure but it should be fine.

If this retrieval is any real distance at all, I'd advocate coming up with a better plan than either...

 

[st8drumz]

Since you'll be mounting the 5th wheel plate either way, I'd mount it to the deuce and remove several possible points of failure.

Last spring I moved a similar semi trailer on a converter dolly from KS to IL to NM behind my M925.

I don't know that an M105 is up to being a converter dolly. I don't know that it isn't, but I'd either use a real converter dolly or make one from an M200, which we know has been done successfully.

Operation at hwy speed on public roads (you didn't say how far) demands a good margin of safety, and the 5th wheel on the deuce has less potential for catastrophic failure than the 5th wheel on the 105.

I see no real problem with daisy chaining air lines. Each additional connection is an another potential point-of-failure but it should be fine.

If this retrieval is any real distance at all, I'd advocate coming up with a better plan than either...

Thanks for your input. The trip is just over 500 miles. Forgot to mention that I could also pick up a civilian converter dolly, pobably have to do some rebuild/repair as they are listed as such or for parts. They are 10 bud wheels so can I put military 5 ton (10 bud 11.00) wheels on it? I agree that the 5th wheel mounted on the deuce would be a better option. Any thoughts on the issues I mentioned and having to make brackets?

 

[98G]

I share your concerns about the distance from the end of your truck frame to the landing gear on the trailer. That might be close enough to make contact in a really tight turn, or especially when backing. I'll go look at some diagrams and comment further.

But backing a converter dolly is essentially impossible under most circumstances.

 

[st8drumz]

Need y'alls advice/knowledge/expertise/opinions. Gotta pick up an M129 and get it from WI to MI. Have two different scenarios, being that the 5 ton tractor I was planning to borrow/use is suddenly out of commission. Neither of which are ideal, to be sure but here they are:

1 - Take the bed off my deuce and put on the 5th wheel that I picked up and convert it into a tractor. The M45 was one of the two deuce tractors (that I'm aware of) that used the same frame (longer of the 2) as the M35a2. If I take the bed off, remove the bumpers (and possibly the pintle hook), that gives me 18" of clearence from the back of the truck to the landing gear, ASSUMING that the hitch placement puts the kingpin in the center of the two rear axles on which I run singled out 11.00s. My thought is to extend the air/electrical by extension hoses from the rear glad hands hook ups and longer intervehicular cable, keeping everything out of the way of the trailer articulation via zip ties, etc.

here are my questions on this method:

- is 18" of clearence from the back of the trailer to the landing gear enough?

- the 5th wheel I have is fairly tall (I know NOTHING about various different military or even civillian 5th wheels) and, more importantly, the space between the frame brackets is only 33.5" and both the deuce and m105 (next scenario) trailer frames are 34" wide (see pics). Here's the question - to get that to "fit" on the deuce, I would have to make some brackets out of 3" or even 3.5" angle Iron and bolt them down on the top of the frame rails? This, of course would effectively raise the whole hitch up that much. I have seen another member do this on an M200 generator trailer (rest in peace Microjeep) converter dolly build but, to my knowledge, that was just for moving his trailer around on his property, not highway use. Your thoughts and opinions?

- any perceivable issues with extending the air lines with gladhand to gladhand extension hoses, of course making sure that nothing is kinked, impinged, or tightly bent? I am aware that the lack of tractor protection valve and other normal tractor/trailer "plumbing" makes this less than ideal - this is just to get the thing home.


Scenario 2 - I have an m105 trailer with no box that could be turned into a converter dolly, using the mounting bracket method mentioned above. I would put dually 11.00s on it as well. Now, I know it's a 1.5 ton trailer and, if military precedent applies, that is OFFROAD capacity making it 3 ton ONROAD capacity (correct me if I'm wrong). Now, sice I also know next to nothing about the 105 trailers as I only picked this one up late Fri night (tried to find an m200 generator trailer), I had noticed a second set of springs (see pic) bolted on top of the main set. Being that there are "stops" on the trailer, I was wondering if that is stock or if that was an extra "add-on" at some point. Now, I know that a "tractor" would be better than towing with a converter dolly so......

my questions on this method:

- is the m105 trailer at 1.5 ton enough to build a dolly for the purpose of getting this UNLOADED trailer home? The military dollies (m197 and 19 are 6 and 8 ton respectively but those are for pulling LOADED trailers, I just need it for UNLOADED highway use. BTW, the m129 is 15k dry weight. I do have a CDL and am aware of the issues with multiple articulation points and unloaded trailers

- IF the second set of springs in the pic is NOT stock, would it stand to reason/help if I replaced it with a "beefier" set of springs?

- any other "percieved" issues, other than what is mentioned?

Thank you all in advance for your comments and advice! Btw, YES I have already thought about having it transported but that would be double what I paid - I would only consider this option as an absolute emergency LAST resort.

Forgot to mention that the upper 5th wheel plate height (on the trailer), LOADED is 3'10" and my truck, with 11.00s on it stands about 3'3.5" at the top of the frame rails. The height of the 5th wheel hitch and plate, flat and accounting for the brackets is 16-16.5". Does that make it too tall when all is said and done? I know that the trailer should "rise up" a bit when coupled but is that too much?

 

[st8drumz]

I share your concerns about the distance from the end of your truck frame to the landing gear on the trailer. That might be close enough to make contact in a really tight turn, or especially when backing. I'll go look at some diagrams and comment further.

But backing a converter dolly is essentially impossible under most circumstances.

What is "ideal" clearence? It is a sliding hitch so any thoughts on mounting point/towing position with regards to the slider? Thanks for the input.

 

[st8drumz]

Since you'll be mounting the 5th wheel plate either way, I'd mount it to the deuce and remove several possible points of failure.

Last spring I moved a similar semi trailer on a converter dolly from KS to IL to NM behind my M925.

I don't know that an M105 is up to being a converter dolly. I don't know that it isn't, but I'd either use a real converter dolly or make one from an M200, which we know has been done successfully.

Operation at hwy speed on public roads (you didn't say how far) demands a good margin of safety, and the 5th wheel on the deuce has less potential for catastrophic failure than the 5th wheel on the 105.

I see no real problem with daisy chaining air lines. Each additional connection is an another potential point-of-failure but it should be fine.

If this retrieval is any real distance at all, I'd advocate coming up with a better plan than either...

Any thoughts on mounting position of the hitch and follow up reply I posted about the hitch/mounting height?

 

[98G]

Thanks for your input. The trip is just over 500 miles. Forgot to mention that I could also pick up a civilian converter dolly, pobably have to do some rebuild/repair as they are listed as such or for parts. They are 10 bud wheels so can I put military 5 ton (10 bud 11.00) wheels on it? I agree that the 5th wheel mounted on the deuce would be a better option. Any thoughts on the issues I mentioned and having to make brackets?

Repair/rebuild of a purpose built converter dolly is probably less work with a better outcome than fabbing one out of a 105.

I see no reason you couldn't use military 5ton wheels on it. Do you already have the wheels and tires? What's currently on it?

On the topic of the brackets, as long as they're heavy enough, I see no issues. 3/8" or 1/2".

Hitch height isn't as big a deal for a one time recovery trip. You can have a pretty big mismatch, and while it would cause accelerated wear over the long term, it's safe and it works short term. I've towed an M129 behind an M818 with 16.00's and the hitch was way high.

The thing about any kind of fab work to be used on public roads is that you want the piece you work on to be the strongest link in the system. Overload the system enough and something with break. You want whatever breaks to not be your piece....

Crunching some numbers, a 500mile retrieval trip using a deuce is going to cost well over $1000 assuming that you have no serious problems. It has the potential to cost about four times that much with just a few glitches.

I've done a bunch of ill-conceived retrievals, and will probably do more. Here's my evaluation of this one, and the ways it can go bad -

1) your deuce is going to be unhappy towing that thing, even empty. There's a good chance you'll lose a clutch (Ask me how I know...)

2) the trailer brakes on the M129 are going to be doing the lion's share of the braking. If they're less than fully functional, very very bad things are "likely" (as opposed to "possible")

3) Any interaction with DOT will be unpleasant and possibly expensive. The more everything looks like it's supposed to be used together, the better off you are. The more anything looks cobbled together, the higher the chances of DOT interest. I have no comment/opinion on the actual legality of any of it.

 

[98G]

Clearance on the hitch -

Ideally you'd want to be able to turn the towing vehicle 90* to the semi trailer and not make contact. I'm not certain because I can't find dimensions, but I don't think 18" gives you that.

In the real world, in a one time retrieval trip, as long as the actual angle you need is less than 90* then less than 90* will work. The thing is, going down the interstate in a straight line, you need next to nothing. Make a wrong turn and end up in something tight, or need to back around a corner, and you'll need all 90*. If you need more angle than you have, something gets damaged or heavy tow trucks get involved.

Having less than 90* doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling.

If you go the converter dolly route, exercise extreme diligence to avoid the need for backing. I can't emphasize this enough. If you get in a position where you need to back it, it won't happen.

 

[st8drumz]

Repair/rebuild of a purpose built converter dolly is probably less work with a better outcome than fabbing one out of a 105.

I see no reason you couldn't use military 5ton wheels on it. Do you already have the wheels and tires? What's currently on it?

On the topic of the brackets, as long as they're heavy enough, I see no issues. 3/8" or 1/2".

Hitch height isn't as big a deal for a one time recovery trip. You can have a pretty big mismatch, and while it would cause accelerated wear over the long term, it's safe and it works short term. I've towed an M129 behind an M818 with 16.00's and the hitch was way high.

The thing about any kind of fab work to be used on public roads is that you want the piece you work on to be the strongest link in the system. Overload the system enough and something with break. You want whatever breaks to not be your piece....

Crunching some numbers, a 500mile retrieval trip using a deuce is going to cost well over $1000 assuming that you have no serious problems. It has the potential to cost about four times that much with just a few glitches.

I've done a bunch of ill-conceived retrievals, and will probably do more. Here's my evaluation of this one, and the ways it can go bad -

1) your deuce is going to be unhappy towing that thing, even empty. There's a good chance you'll lose a clutch (Ask me how I know...)

2) the trailer brakes on the M129 are going to be doing the lion's share of the braking. If they're less than fully functional, very very bad things are "likely" (as opposed to "possible")

3) Any interaction with DOT will be unpleasant and possibly expensive. The more everything looks like it's supposed to be used together, the better off you are. The more anything looks cobbled together, the higher the chances of DOT interest. I have no comment/opinion on the actual legality of any of it.

WIth respect to the clutch concern, with the deuce "officially" rated for 10k, reality being much more, everything I've ever seen on SS seems to support that it will do twice as much without a problem. If I use the "7 speed" shift pattern rather than 5, wouldn't that help the clutch?

 

[st8drumz]

What are your thoughts about drilling into the frame to mount the hitch and approach ramps?

 

[98G]

WIth respect to the clutch concern, with the deuce "officially" rated for 10k, reality being much more, everything I've ever seen on SS seems to support that it will do twice as much without a problem. If I use the "7 speed" shift pattern rather than 5, wouldn't that help the clutch?

It may be fine. Or not. Clutch loss is high on my list of potential problems in the given scenario. I'm not saying it'll happen. I'm saying that if something bad happens, clutch loss is a top candidate.

Is this an auction trailer? If so, brakes and tires are always suspect. You'd probably get away without trailer brakes if towing with a 24,000lb 5ton. Not so with a 15,000lb deuce. Lack of trailer brakes would cause me to wave off.


Regarding drilling into the frame, there's probably multiple methods to attach a 5th wheel that would all be OK. I'd be reluctant to drill holes without an annular cutter and mag drill.

Given the goal of getting an M129 home, using a deuce as the tow vehicle...and given the equipment you have available and potentially available...this is what I'd do -

Repair/refurb the real tow dolly and use that. And I still have the reservations about it that I listed earlier.

A far better alternative would be to use a 5ton truck tractor. Trip cost would be about the same, and you'd have far more margin. More favorable weight ratio between towed vehicle and towing vehicle. More robust driveline and brakes. Just far less chance of badness in general.

Dragging an M129 around with a 5ton is slow. Dragging an M129 around with a deuce is going to be beyond slow. Any hint of a hill is going to have you downshifting. Any kind of sustained grade is going to have you in 2nd or 3rd gear.

I would not have acquired an M129 500 miles away with the plan of a deuce as a tow vehicle. And I realize that you didn't either. You planned for a 5ton and the deuce is plan B. But using the deuce for this is really marginal in my opinion.

This whole thing is a calculated risk exercise. Presumably you can go get it for half what it would cost to have it delivered. Except if things go bad, it'll be more than double what delivery would cost. It comes down to tolerance for risk, and whether you consider this a chore or recreation.

The most likely outcome for any of your potential choices, whichever way you choose, is success. Despite the fact that I'm looking at potential points of failure, they're only potential.

 

[charlesmann]

As for angle and distance from rear of tck to landing gear. Find the location you plan on putting the 5th wheel, measure from center kingpin receptacle to the outer end of the frame, roughly 45* from 5th wheel, facing aft. Do the same on the trailer, center of kingpin to inner edge of landing gear. If distance from kingpin to gear is great than distance from 5th wheel to edge of frame, then its a no-go.

The 5th has some slide to it. If you mount the wheel as far aft as possible, with the wheel slid in the closest holes to cab, then you have a lil wiggle room.

I too share concerns using the duce to tow that trailer with, but im sure a similar trailer was towed by the tractor variant duce, so you might be good.

It might sound crazy, but if there is a commercial enterprise or even budget, and maybe an equip rental place near by, they might have a single axle tandem you could rent. I didnt know enterprise rented med duty big tcks, but i dropped off a fleet rental one time and they had numerous single axle tractors, and i saw the same for budget. Since you have a cdl, renting to you makes it easier.

 

[Tow4]

When I picked up my M373, the brakes were inop. But considering my M915 weights twice what the trailer does and it has very good modern air brakes, I was not concerned. I could not tell the trailer was there on the way home.

An M129 is a tall heavy trailer and probably weighs more than your tow vehicle. If the trailer brakes don't work, the M35 won't be able to stop it. Plus using a tow dolly with no trailer brakes is a jack-knife looking for a place to happen, assuming the M35 can slow it down fast enough to cause a jack-knife. And let's not even consider the potential legal/insurance problems.

I think if I couldn't find a regular tractor that has good brakes to use, I would hire some one to deliver it.