60 Hz Right?

[Speddmon]

that will come in really handy when the power is out and you're hooking up your generator for back-up power


Divemaster,

That was a very good explanation of how to synchronize two power sources, but for all intents and purposes, the frequency isn't going to be that critical. Yes, the power companies are required to regulate the frequency of your incoming power to within very tight tolerances. But in reality, almost all of your modern appliances and electronics will work on either 50 or 60 Hz so if you use the gauge on your set and get the frequency close to 60 Hz (within 5% +/-...anywhere from 57 Hz up to 63 Hz) you're going to be fine.

 

[Isaac-1]

It sounds to me like the big question mark on your power demands is going to be the electric? water heater. Briefly looking online they seem to be offered in both 120V and 240V models with power consumption between 1500 watts and 4000 watts on a fast recovery unit. Hopefully yours is a 120V unit, if so you can probably set the generator to 120V only mode, not 120/240V and eliminate the concern for load balancing. In 120V only mode you have access to the full output of the generator, in 120/240V mode, you have half of the output available on each 120V leg, and all available on the 240V line to line connection (you can think of this as having 2 2500 watt 120V generators, instead of 1 5000 watt). Note these MEP units are conservatively rated, and the output figures listed are for 24/7 operation with a surge rating somewhat higher than the published numbers (I read somewhere in one of the tech manuals for my unit that it must sustain 4 times its operating load for 10 seconds, the best of the industrial/commercial units are only rated at 3 times for 10 seconds). Another thing to remember is diesel engines do not like operating at light loads, and diesel generators should be sized to operate at 70% load or higher, otherwise bad things happen (see wet stacking). This would lead me to think a 5 KW MEP-002 is likely a good fit for your needs, and a little 3 kw MEP-701a (or 016b,d,e for its other diesel variants) may even work as it outputs 32 amps at 120V.

Ike

 

[Speddmon]

Ike, your explanation is very well thought out, but I think a little clarification is in order.

In 120V only mode you have access to the full output of the generator, in 120/240V mode, you have half of the output available on each 120V leg, and all available on the 240V line to line connection (you can think of this as having 2 2500 watt 120V generators, instead of 1 5000 watt).

The first rule of electricity...Power is Power

the way you worded that part makes it seem, at first glance, that you only have a limited amount of usable power available when you are in 120/240 volt operation. You still have the full 5000 watts available no matter what mode you are running the generator in. If the water heater is 4000 watts at 240 volts, you still have 1000 watts of power remaining whether it is another 1000 watt 240 volt load or two 500 watt 120 volt loads. The only disadvantage to using the set in 120/240 mode is that you need to be a little more careful with balancing the 120 volt loads.

 

[steelandcanvas]

One guy already had one running and I asked if he had the 120 v and 60 hz set.. he said yeah.. well he was pumping 220 volts and who knows what the hz were at.. well when the guys went in the tent (day time) and plugged in the cell phone charges well they did not like it one bit! so when they turned on the lights.. well there was a big flash I was told. Better to ask then just do and take a bunch of stuff out.

Was this Gentleman given the appropriate blanket party? These types of folks are dangerous, not only to themselves, but to others as well. BTW, very good thread, lots of good information here.

 

[steelandcanvas]

I picked up an MEP-003A at Ft Jackson a few months ago. It was 120 / 240 V, 60 Hz and 10 kw mounted on a M116A2 trailer. I got lucky, it was in excellent shape, and started right up. I intend to power my whole house and got a transfer switch off E-bay. It is also diesel powered, has it's own fuel tank or will pull from a separate tank. I would highly recommend this model, but one caveat is that it is EXTREMELY noisy. I plant to mount a muffler on the trailer.

If I may ask Gary, what did you end up giving for that 003? I just purchased one on a 116 trailer last week with 188 hours on it.

 

[rmgill]

You wont find anything but 60hz in the USA, the voltage may vary, but it'll usually always be 60hz.

One possible exception to this is aviation generators that will run at 400hz.

An old boss of mine was a field technician for a Major Computer company. He was called out to look at a computer that was NOT working right. It was behaving quite oddly and the logic was all off. (this was a mainframe) They had swapped components for days and still no success at figuring out the problem. He comes in, notes that the building used to be a Hanger and asks about the power. All the other computer folks shrugged and he pointed to the power asking again, is it 60 htz? They made some inquiries and sure enough, the computer was actually plugged into the correct voltage but wrong cycle rate, ie 400 htz.

Also you can also find 25 Htz power in the North East, mostly near Niagra and in the New York area where power was originally setup at 25 htz and customers with large plants didn't want to change huge motor over, so the power company has continued to provide 25 htz power to those customers from a few choice generating plants.

 

[Isaac-1]

Speddmon: I agree the wording could have been better, but I was in a rush to type it before leaving the house.


Rmgill: There was a rather long message thread over at smokstak about the Niagra 25 hz grid last winter, as I recall it was finally shut down a couple of years ago.

Ike

 

[croftonaviation]

whats a fair price to pay gl for a mep 016 with no trailer (don't know if that was an option so please don't shoot me) there are several coming up that are in B$ condition and I am wondering where ya'll would draw the line on price. By the way the rest of the thread has been very educational, thanks to all for your contributions.

 

[Isaac-1]

I guess it depends on which version of the MEP-016 your looking for, as there are 5 or 6 depending on how you count them, I have seen all for sale on GL with out trailers, in fact most I have seen listed were without trailer, probably due to their relatively light weight 300-525 pounds depending on version .

MEP-016a/016c gasoline powered units using a 4 cylinder military standard engine I think (built in the 1970's maybe even the late '60's)

MEP-016B later production (late 1980's - early 90's) diesel version with a different frame, control panel, etc. using a special built 1 cylinder 3600 rpm Onan engine (only other use I have seen for this engine was a military air compressor)

MEP-701a - a slightly modified MEP-016B in a ASK Housing, these are often listed as 016B's on GL for some reason they give the ASK version a new number unlike the ASK versions of the MEP-002/003

MEP-016D - Old MEP-016a/c retrofitted with a Yanmar 1 cylinder diesel (most retrofit dates I have heard seem to be 2001-2005)

MEP-016E - probably the rarest version its a MEP-016B retrofitted with the same Yanmar as the 016D, I am not sure if there are also Yanmar powred versions of the 701a.

The D's and E's seem to go for the highest price, which makes sense due to the relative ease of getting parts for the Yanmar, as well as the people that may be wanting to buy it for the engine alone, since this same basic engine is used in all sorts of equipment (the Yanmar in these units are 24V versions not listed on Yanmars webpage), I was watching one of th e 016D's on a GL auction a couple of weeks ago, it was over $1,000 with an hour to go. On ebay the asking price/starting bid is usualy listed $500 - $2,400, but thats ebay for you.

Ike

 

[hurst01]

This also depends on the portability that you want. Personally, I would not want to get anything smaller than 5KW. The gas powered MEP017 will drive you bonkers, extremely noisy. Strange, I didn't remember them being that noisy when I was younger.
I have several 5KW diesels but would kind of like a 10KW so that it would operate my A/C in summer. The 5KW may operated my A/C but may have to turn most everything else off. I actually haven't got mine hooked up as of yet.

Ed

 

[rmgill]

Rmgill: There was a rather long message thread over at smokstak about the Niagra 25 hz grid last winter, as I recall it was finally shut down a couple of years ago.

Ike

How sad. End of an era. They just knocked down the old PRR Steam plant tower in Philly the other day.

 

[Isaac-1]

This also depends on the portability that you want. Personally, I would not want to get anything smaller than 5KW. The gas powered MEP017 will drive you bonkers, extremely noisy. Strange, I didn't remember them being that noisy when I was younger.
I have several 5KW diesels but would kind of like a 10KW so that it would operate my A/C in summer. The 5KW may operated my A/C but may have to turn most everything else off. I actually haven't got mine hooked up as of yet.

Ed

I guess it just depends on what you need in a major power outage (not counting when the power is out for a couple of hours due to a drunk driver hitting a pole), for me any long outage is going to likely be the result of a hurricane (I am 90 miles inland on the evacuation route, so even when we don't loose power the local gas stations are sold out of gasoline for days), a somewhat less likely outage would be due to an ice storm. In either case fuel economy is very important to me, before buying my 3kw MEP-701a my backup generator was a little 1000 watt Honda inverter unit, this provided just enough power to cycle between running the refrigerator for a couple of hours, and running the chest freezer for a couple of hours, along with a few lights, and maybe a fan or a small window air conditioner, the advantage of this little unit is only 2-3 gallons per day of gasoline, compared to the 15-20 gallons per day needed by most of the 6KW big box store specials even when running a light load. In my case I think the little 3kw MEP-701a makes sense, sure it consumes a lot more than my little Honda at about .5 gal per hour full load, but diesel stores much easier than gasoline, plus I have access to large diesel storage tanks at the family farm, and at work where I could likely get a few gallons, unlike the gasoline situation. With the MEP-701a I can run the refrigerator and freezer, plus a small 5,000 btu window airconditioner and an 11,000 btu portable air conditioner along with a few lights and a small tv (in the winter it is much the same except instead of the air conditioners it is the blower for the gas heat).

Ike

 

[O.D. Fever]

My MEP002 will run the whole house, central air, well pump, fridge and lights, at the same time I get 18 hours run time per tank. It uses about .4 gallons of diesel per hour. It will not run the central air and electric dryer at the same time, the dryer is a power pig. We go off the grid just for grins about every other month.

 

[hurst01]

We had two major power outages last year. One for a hurricane and the other an ice storm. That is when I made up my mind to get a generator. I kind of wanted a 10KW but the prices of them were a bit high. I have three of the MEP002A 5KW Gensets now. I went crazy.
I need to hook one up to see how it will work. A friend hooked his up and turned on EVERYTHING electrical in the house (big house). The circuit breaker kicked when the A/C came on. He said the electric dryer really lugged the generator down also. I think part of his issue was that his Genset is located at least 200' from his house. 200" can have a considerable power drop.
Still, I think it will do what I want. I am a 100% medically disabled Vet. I can't stand heat or cold to the extremes. I have been very fortunate for power outages in the past, but I wanted more assurance. I am SO glad that I didn't get the MEP 017 gas Genset for myself though. Noisy sucker, but effecient.

Ed

 

[Speddmon]

If you use your head, you can easily run most of your stuff on a 5KW set.

First and foremost, don't do laundry and run the AC at the came time...pretty simple. Electric dryers and electric stoves/ranges use a ton of KWs. If you are smart about your loads you will not have an issue. If you have to do laundry, turn the AC off for an hour until the dryer is done and you're probably good to go.

As far as the distance from the house goes, it's no big deal if you size the wire properly. Voltage drop calculations are pretty simple, since the MEP-002a is rated for 26 amps at 240 volts, you would use that for your drop calculations.

For 30 amps of current, the minimum copper wire size you could use for a 3 current carrying conductor cable would be #10 AWG (10/3). But at that distance you would have a considerable voltage drop, almost 12 1/2 volts across the 240 volt line...that's too much. So for that distance you would need to step it up some, #8 AWG copper wire would still be on the border line for a proper wire size with a 7 3/4 volt drop across the line. To be safe and not experience the great losses you would want to use a #6 copper cable for that distance (6/3), and you could limit the voltage drop to under 5 volts across the 240 volt line. That's a manageable loss for that distance.

 

[stridar]

I bought a mep 016d the motor ran fine.. the gen put out nothing... after some trouble shooting... reading all the forums on this wonderful site... about 3hrs on phone to figure out a few parts numbers... a few weeks waiting on the parts... i replaced all 3 of the gen diodes $79 ... started it up and something blew out in AVR ... well back to wait for part 1 sx460 $39 .... installed fired it up again eureka got power seems to be working fine but 62 hertz instead of 60... ill play with the avr a bit more it has 2 adjustments 1 is voltage im hoping other is hertz.... at any rate got fully functional after adjustments for under $500.. lol loving it if any can tell me about the hertz and how vital being right on 60 is i would appriciate it.

 

[storeman]

Its 60 under load. 62 is fine as it will drop somewhat under load. 58-62 under load is acceptable in my opinion.
Jerry

 

[Jimc]

The hz has nothing to do with voltage regulator. The hz is set by engine rpm.

 

[tobyS]

Just a note about wire and distance. Given the cost of copper these days, I have been forced to use aluminum for long services (recently put in a 1600' run for 100 hp irrigation). I don't like it because joints tend to loosen up, but voltage drop in long AL runs is about half of what copper is. If your a couple of hundred feet from your house, shop or whatever....go through the voltage drop calculations for both CU and AL at least one or two sizes larger than your load and compare the prices of each. If your over sized, they will not heat too bad. Heating AL joints (then cooling) causes joints to loosen. So... regularly tighten the connections, because a loose joint is a source of fire, arcing and equipment damage, much more so with aluminum than copper.

Re the light bulb synchronization method, I thought the light went out when they were in sync. at 60 hz with grid?? "Flashing" ...indicating they are NOT in sync.

Caution...if your grid is out and you connect in, don't forget to disconnect the grid connection. When it comes back on with no warning and your not in sync, serious, SERIOUS damage will result. As some persons use a welder plug (I do, so can use my portable welder), not a transfer switch, it is VERY important to be disconnected from the grid. In my case I simply turn off the main. Also you can electrocute a lineman if your back-feeding. That transformer on the pole will step up your 240 volt to 5,200 or more, just as well as it steps down.