AVM vs Ouverson: take a closer look!

[gringeltaube]

Few words and lots of pics!

Enjoy!

 

[gringeltaube]

AVM seal issue

A word of caution about the V-seal on the AVM dial selector: two out of my 4 hubs had the seal incorrectly seated in their groove, with the lip partially facing inward and distorted! What this means is clear...!
I'm NOT saying that 50% of all their #434 are bad, but it happened to me and it could as well be the case of someone else!?

If I hadn't decided to COMPLETELY disassemble one (just for fun and curiosity), I would never have discovered that faulty seal issue! It became evident only after removing the plastic dial. The good thing is that it can be checked from outside. (That way I found a second one with the same problem!) The plastic dial has some radial play, so if it is pushed hard to one side (pic) the seal lip can barely be seen on the opposite side, leaning against the wall of the recess and facing outward, 360 degrees.... That if it is correctly installed!
The not-so-good thing is that it is somewhat tricky to separate the outer dial knob from the inner ramp cylinder(also plastic) because they are held together thanks to a modern "use-and-discard" snap-on design. Good that plastics get softer after applying a little heat... At least it was possible to re-use/re-install that seal correctly.

When I wrote the manufacturer about this all their only conclusion was that I had twisted that seal during reassembly due to "not paying attention and my lack of experience..." ! Yes, believe it or not, that was their response, directly from AVM's owner...!!! Ahh, and he also said they have sold over 100 hubs in USA and Europe and never had a claim, just compliments...!

My question: How many of those could have the same problem and nobody never even suspecting it?
My conclusion: Lousy workmanship and lack of control at the assembly line!
My wishes: Good luck Mr. AVM!

Gerhard

 

[motorolanut]

RE: AVM seal issue

Nice Photos and Great Job For a Comparison..This needs to a a Duece Sticky...

 

[dabtl]

John Tennis must be selling more of the AVM hubs than I thought.

 

[gringeltaube]

AVM hubs

OOOPS! Just found some instructions: "IMPORTANT: Every time hubs are disassembled for vehicle maintenance, make sure parts supplied in AVM service kits are used for re-installation."

The problem is I forgot to order (how many?) kits...!!!

And another challenge I'm facing now: a nice hub salad, to be converted into just two perfectly working hubs. Maybe I should call them for assistance...?!

G.

 

[Offroadfabworks]

RE: AVM hubs

Thanks for the tear down and comparison. Really shows the amount of work randy puts into his parts. And shows the diffrences internally vs the outsides looking the same.

 

[Elwenil]

RE: AVM hubs

I will also say from my experience with light duty 4WD trucks that the longer the dial turn to engage the hub, the more leverage you have to engage the hub. This is very important in colder climates, or if you drive a lot in snow and ice. The longer turn makes it much easier to turn. Also, I have had many bad experiences with plastic dials on hub, such as the cheap Mile Marker hubs. A plastic dial is a bad idea in my opinion. Also, I can't tell from the pics, but a lot of 1/4 turn hubs do not positively engage, they apply spring tension against the coupling gear and if the gear is free, it will line up, if it's not, it will rub against the axle stub until it can line up and pop in. This can lead to stripping out of the coupling gear and the splines on the axle stub shaft. A good example of this are the mid-80s Ford half ton hubs.

From what I can see here, the AVM hub compares to the Overson hub much like a stock half ton truck hub compares to the classic Warn Premium hub. Just my .02

 

[sprucemt]

RE: AVM hubs

John Tennis is at a show this weekend and won't be available till Monday or Tuesday, if he chooses as the US distributor of the AVM hubs, to respond to any of this.

 

[dabtl]

Re: RE: AVM hubs

I will also say from my experience with light duty 4WD trucks that the longer the dial turn to engage the hub, the more leverage you have to engage the hub. This is very important in colder climates, or if you drive a lot in snow and ice. The longer turn makes it much easier to turn. Also, I have had many bad experiences with plastic dials on hub, such as the cheap Mile Marker hubs. A plastic dial is a bad idea in my opinion. Also, I can't tell from the pics, but a lot of 1/4 turn hubs do not positively engage, they apply spring tension against the coupling gear and if the gear is free, it will line up, if it's not, it will rub against the axle stub until it can line up and pop in. This can lead to stripping out of the coupling gear and the splines on the axle stub shaft. A good example of this are the mid-80s Ford half ton hubs.

From what I can see here, the AVM hub compares to the Overson hub much like a stock half ton truck hub compares to the classic Warn Premium hub. Just my .02

I have been running the AVM hubs for some months. No problems to report at all.

I have also been in manufacturing. Some things never change it appears. Just as one company has some item to tout another has different ideas.

The pics simply show differences in manufacturing products that do the same thing. If you like the bearing in the Ouverson unit, buy it. But, does it make a difference? And, if it does, how much of a difference? This is kind of like RCA and Zenith arguing about who had the better TV. They both produced color pictures of the same quality. So, in order to sell one or the other, they touted what was inside that you could not see.

It is all interesting but of little actual consequence.

 

[M1075]

RE: Re: RE: AVM hubs

Great side-by-side comparison pics Gerhard. I really appreciate the detail at which you analyze things. Maybe either style of hub is dependable and works, but I would have a hard time putting something that says 4x4 on my 6x6 deuce! Now if I bobbed it, well, that is a different story!

 

[gringeltaube]

I agree that both products do their job, as well as "domestic" AND "imported" cars or color TVs do.
Both products can be improved (for a reasonable cost) but only one of the two manufacturers involved proved to have an open mind regarding customer feedback and suggestions....!
As a side note: I didn't even mention jatonka (Mr.John Tennis) since in my case he had nothing to do with it. He most probably does listen to his customers! I would feel bad if my comments would affect his business since I'm sure he's doing his best for our hobby. But someone had to do the "dirty job" and open the eyes to anyone who's interested...
Hopefully John can convince the proud Brazilians to step a little down from their high horse. They shouldn't treat us customers as if we all were stupid!

And I've told AVMs distributor for Latin America that I probably will continue buying their product, for my low-budget customers and of course not selling/installing them without prior inspection !! It needs to be said that here they cost me little over U$S 400 per set, compared to the Ouverson hubs, imported from far north for nearly U$S1000 each set!

or less!

Gerhard

 

[m376x6]

AVM/Superwinch

The AVM's and their cousins imported by and sold under the Superwinch name are made in Brazil, Sao Paulo to be exact. The pictures are shocking, the level of mass displayed between the two is impressive, with the Ouverswon's (sp?)being very impressive indeed. What are the price tags for each? I wasn't aware that John was selling the AVM's, I was never interested in putting them on and never reseached them. There was a fellow I talked to who was interested in having me design a Hub Guard similar to what I make in the past for the Superwinch and Selectro's used on Dodge's, but that never went far. I believe he used a modified Selectro as I recall. With an upcoming Bob in my future, Hubs may be very appealing.

Regards,
M376X6

 

[dabtl]

I agree that both products do their job, as well as "domestic" AND "imported" cars or color TVs do.
Both products can be improved (for a reasonable cost) but only one of the two manufacturers involved proved to have an open mind regarding customer feedback and suggestions....!
As a side note: I didn't even mention jatonka (Mr.John Tennis) since in my case he had nothing to do with it. He most probably does listen to his customers! I would feel bad if my comments would affect his business since I'm sure he's doing his best for our hobby. But someone had to do the "dirty job" and open the eyes to anyone who's interested...
Hopefully John can convince the proud Brazilians to step a little down from their high horse. They shouldn't treat us customers as if we all were stupid!

And I've told AVMs distributor for Latin America that I probably will continue buying their product, for my low-budget customers and of course not selling/installing them without prior inspection !! It needs to be said that here they cost me little over U$S 400 per set, compared to the Ouverson hubs, imported from far north for nearly U$S1000 each set!

or less!

Gerhard

It would seem to me that you need to make a third version, to your ideas, then we can all compare the completed products and see if one does out perform the other.

Product dispargement is not a new idea in marketing. And, at times over engineering a product as a sales point is effective.

But, in the final analysis, the question is does one out perform the other significantly in real life. My guess is they both probably fail with the same frequency and do the same job. So, perhaps it is styling that makes the difference to the eye? Personally, I do not like the extra height of the Ouverson units. Just my thoughts, however.

 

[Offroadfabworks]

if your going for clearance and slim line factor i would go with the milemarker selectro. but as far as the oversons and AVM they are the same price.

 

[Elwenil]

but as far as the oversons and AVM they are the same price.

If that is the case, it would seem you get more for your money with the Ouverson hubs. The lack of breakable plastic parts, especially those that require replacement during service, and just the overall beef of the Ouverson hub makes the choice obvious to me. Now I wonder if we can convince Ouverson to make hubs for other models as well?

 

[sprucemt]

John Tennis's price is $595.00, freight paid within the lower 48.
http://www.jatonkam35s.com/Sales.htm

John has sold quite a few to fellow SS members, so you should see some comments from them in the future.

Here is Ouverson's link. I do not know or can I tell what the shipping charge is.
http://ouversonengineering.com/inc/sdetail/204

 

[dabtl]

John Tennis's price is $595.00, freight paid within the lower 48.
http://www.jatonkam35s.com/Sales.htm

John has sold quite a few to fellow SS members, so you should see some comments from them in the future.

Here is Ouverson's link. I do not know or can I tell what the shipping charge is.
http://ouversonengineering.com/inc/sdetail/204

That link shows alloy hubs by Ouverson. I thought gringeltaube said the Ouverson hubs he examined were steel castings?

Are there two kinds of Ouverson hubs?

 

[m376x6]

John Tennis's price is $595.00, freight paid within the lower 48.
http://www.jatonkam35s.com/Sales.htm

John has sold quite a few to fellow SS members, so you should see some comments from them in the future.

Here is Ouverson's link. I do not know or can I tell what the shipping charge is.
http://ouversonengineering.com/inc/sdetail/204

Thanks Don, some useful information instead of flaming inuendo and guessing about product durability. Very much appreciated. All steel, whether cast, forged or cut is alloy. Depending on the content and quantity of additives they determine things like corrosion resistance, hardness, torsional response and the list is as long as the number of folks who have a specific duty in mind for the type of steel they determine they need. Right now, appearances clearly place the Oversons in a superior interpretation. Where it counts is the comments from folks who have actually used them and ultimately destroy them. Since it appears both brands are identical in price, which brand survives the greatest stress and which brand offers the better warranty should determine who has the better product. If either never fail then the point is moot. Someone saying the Oversons look beefier and have better production practises is not a slam against John. Having dealt with John over the years I know he has enough horsepower to weather any comments and make ones he feels are appropriate.

Regards,
Bryan

 

[sprucemt]

Gringeltaube,

You mention AVM part 443 in one of your post's. That is the correct part # that John Tennis sells for the 2 1/2 ton axle.

You are showing in one of your pics an AVM box with part # 4 465 on the end. Are you actually comparing the correct #443 AVM hub with Ouverson's?

 

[JasonS]

This is not product disparagement; it is fair and objective benchmarking. In my industry, we do it every chance we get. You can bet that our customers do, too.