AVM vs Ouverson: take a closer look!

[JasonS]

WOW. I shoulda stopped reading a couple of pages ago, before I got irritated.......seems obvious to me that dabtl has a personal stake in this - so many petty comments in what started as a simple comparison.....

You want to compare 1911s? How about ARs, then. Say you see two on a rack at the gun shop. They are both roughly the same price. One is mil-spec, the other is not. The 2nd one also has more upper/lower play........yeah, they will both function the same, and both will likely outlive you, but there is still a difference in quality, no? A difference that you don't need to be an engineer to see......why, then, would you buy the "lesser" one?


P.S. I join the others that are hoping for some 5-ton hubs in the future.

First, I have no personal stake in any of this. Second, I have watched engineers and machinists argue for years about tolerances, machining and 'quality.'

This entire thread is about a disgruntled machinist's hurt feelings when he attempted to 'correct' the engineers and manufacturers of the AVM hubs. It is as simple as that. Gerhard probably has not seen more than a couple of hundred of these hubs in his lifetime. Yet, he knows much more than those who have made thousands over decades?

The field tests of each of these hubs will show that they each do the job required for an extended period of time. That being the case everyone admits, the differences are the cosmetic exterior and the internal workings. Both of these are legitimate sales approaches to the consumer. But the addition of ball bearings or a gasket type does not in and of itself imply a superior product. Sometimes redundancy, is just that, redundant.

Now, I personally could care less which brand of hub you purchase for your use. I picked the AVM because of my prior dealings with John Tennis. I examined the Ouverson hubs at USA6X6 before the purchase. They were and are very nicely made.

If you are concerned to have only the very best for your personal use, then you have committed to buying the sizzle rather than the steak, a common sales tactic used all the time in retailing everything from TV to AR rifles. Beauty is, after all, in the eye of the beholder.

If your point is that the ball bearings and gaskets are just "sizzle", you are missing the more important fact, the "sizzle" can be had with the steak for the same $$$.

 

[dabtl]

If your point is that the ball bearings and gaskets are just "sizzle", you are missing the more important fact, the "sizzle" can be had with the steak for the same $$$.

Sizzle, unlike steak, cannot be eaten. The only point was a 'sizzle' argument is not much of an argument. And, as I have said before, either hub will probably last longer than the truck will be used. Just take your pick, without disparaging the other guy's product. For only a few dollars more you can have the bearing and the O-rings, if that is your wish.

Either way enjoy the experience, I did.

 

[Elwenil]

So if a guy makes a mouse trap that is better than the other guys mouse trap and they advertise their product as being better in some way and state how the prospective buyer would be better off with the better product, then they are disparaging the other manufacturers product? That's simple capitalism my friend. Along the same lines, if we are a group of exterminator enthusiasts and someone does a comparison of mouse traps and notes that the new mouse trap has an oak wood base compared to the pine in the old one, a heavier spring and a better trigger mechanism, then he is also disparaging the older mouse trap? So basically you are saying that any comparison of products is disparaging to one or another and is unacceptable? You better not read a Consumer Reports magazine then, they are really going to piss you off, lol.

Seriously, this comparison is very valid and is not malicious in any way. Gerhard's comments about AVM are also valid in this comparison since he got what most of us would consider less than satisfactory service from the manufacturer. He seems to be looking out for SteelSoldiers members as a whole and helping us decide on the best product for our money. I think a manufacturer that is willing to listen and not blow you off is a serious consideration in buying a product. I could understand if Gerhard was saying things like "the AVM hub is trash and this is why..." or "I don't like the AVM hub and won't buy another because they are made by people I don't like" or something but he really has made very valid and rational comparisons in this thread. To those who have questioned his methods and motives, he has tried to give you a more scientific approach to appease you, all in the name of helping SteelSoldiers members. I think that is very commendable, in my honest opinion.

 

[sprucemt]

AVM Hubs

Jatonka,s pics

 

[sprucemt]

Re: AVM lockout hubs

The thread on comparison of two brands of lockout hubs for our M35 trucks has gone quite too far into an area that is nt doing anyone much good. I sent one post early on in the thread stating my observations and personal feelings on the topic. I stand by what I posted as being true and accurate information. I have one other comment on the newer part of the thread having to do with the "misalignment of the splines" as brought up by another person. I removed 1 original drive flange from an 8000 mile truck, 1 old AVM from a truck-this hub is one from 1957 vintage, took 1 new AVM out of a box, and 1 Selectro off of my JATonka 4x4 conversion deuce.
I checked all of the hubs and original drive flange on the axle of the truck with 8000 miles. My findings are as follow:
The original drive flange was the loosest fit, the splines were not as deep as any of the lockout hubs.
The old AVM, around since 1957, and the 5 year old Selectro were a little less play than the original.
The new AVM was the tighest fit of all 4 and does have some free play.

My findings are by actually testing the feel on the truck and may not be of mechanical engineer quality, but when I found substanialy more free rotational play in the factory drive flange vs. either AVM,old or new, and the Selectro it put my mind at ease that the quality of the lockout hubs is more than enough to give satisfactory service for these trucks.
I also opened 45 boxes of new selectro #434 M35 Reo lockout hubs and did not find any out of place seals on the engagement knob.
I can't post more than one picture at a time so I will forward them to someone who can post them as a follow up to this. The picture that follows is one of all 4 hubs that I tested
Thank you for your time on this, John Tennis

 

[dabtl]

So if a guy makes a mouse trap that is better than the other guys mouse trap and they advertise their product as being better in some way and state how the prospective buyer would be better off with the better product, then they are disparaging the other manufacturers product? That's simple capitalism my friend. Along the same lines, if we are a group of exterminator enthusiasts and someone does a comparison of mouse traps and notes that the new mouse trap has an oak wood base compared to the pine in the old one, a heavier spring and a better trigger mechanism, then he is also disparaging the older mouse trap? So basically you are saying that any comparison of products is disparaging to one or another and is unacceptable? You better not read a Consumer Reports magazine then, they are really going to piss you off, lol.

Seriously, this comparison is very valid and is not malicious in any way. Gerhard's comments about AVM are also valid in this comparison since he got what most of us would consider less than satisfactory service from the manufacturer. He seems to be looking out for SteelSoldiers members as a whole and helping us decide on the best product for our money. I think a manufacturer that is willing to listen and not blow you off is a serious consideration in buying a product. I could understand if Gerhard was saying things like "the AVM hub is trash and this is why..." or "I don't like the AVM hub and won't buy another because they are made by people I don't like" or something but he really has made very valid and rational comparisons in this thread. To those who have questioned his methods and motives, he has tried to give you a more scientific approach to appease you, all in the name of helping SteelSoldiers members. I think that is very commendable, in my honest opinion.

Assuming they both killed rats, I would toss either into the trash with the dead rat and simply be glad either did the job. You might try comparing being hung with a new rope as opposed to an old rope by comparison.

 

[sprucemt]

John Tennis's 434 AVM hubs were made specifically for the M series 2 1/2 ton truck. John provided to AVM Brazil, the parts necessary to engineer and build the AVM 434 that is currently being sold here in the US . There was no pattern, there was no data at the MFG. John did all the legwork to make this happen.

The AVM 434 hub that John Tennis is currently selling has never before been sold here in the US.

Yes, a similar AVM hub has been in the past on the market.

John Tennis has spent a huge amount of time and money re-developing another choice in lock out hubs. A proto type was mfg and shipped to John for testing. Then the whole process thru mfg, shipping and US Customs.

John did all this to support this hobby, not the rock crawlers, not the mud boggers, just you, the M35 series owners. And of course to make a few $. Literaly a few $.

 

[sprucemt]

Are you not all assuming that the AVM hubs di-sected on this post are of new, current manufacture? Could it be possible that the hubs that Gerhard purchased from the Latin American distributor are new old stock from a previous production run?

This is what happens when I am running on 4 or 5 hours of sleep, just finishing the second 12 cup pot of coffee, working on the 3rd pack of cigaretts, in a hurry to boot

What I really wanted to know is, are we talikng about the same hubs. I still do not have the answer.

 

[HeadWizard]

Chevy...Ford...Chevy...Ford...Chevy...Ford...Chevy...Ford...Chevy...Ford...Chevy...Ford - They both get you where you need to go for about the same money.

Blonds...Redheads...Brunettes...Blonds...Redheads...Brunettes...Blonds...Redheads...Brunettes ...Blonds...Redheads...Brunettes - Personal preference, and cost you LOTS of money.

I will ask again for the THIRD TIME: Does anyone have PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE (actually seen with their own eyes) a failed hub of any brand used on the Deuce (and has the hub in their possession) other than one that might have been damaged by a Jersey Barrier (or some other such stupidity)? As the saying goes, SHOW ME THE MONEY (umm hub).

It appears that several members are possibly just taking this a tad too far. While I appreciate Gerhard's photos and measurements and diagrams, I am puzzled by the fact that he wanted to be an AVM distributor (or so I was told) and now is doing a pretty good job of pointing out what he considers flaws in the AVM unit. I was also under the impression that AVM turned him down for a distributorship? If I'm wrong on these facts, my bad. Kinda sounds like sour grapes to me?

Also, the response given by the folks at AVM to Gerhards inquiries were probably not the best customer service. Maybe they need sensitivity training? Were they right, probably not. I can speak from experience that sometimes the Brazilians can sometimes be a little gruff. I spent about 2 months in the Sao Paulo region working a temporary job some years ago and know their customs. They can be abrasive.

This all does not mean that the differences in the Ouverson hub would not make it better for some (maybe all) uses. I would probably be happy with either one and doubt I would be able to break any of them.

As I suggested before, lets all go have a soda pop (beer) and find something more productive to discuss.

 

[doghead]

I will ask again for the THIRD TIME: Does anyone have PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE (actually seen with their own eyes) a failed hub of any brand used on the Deuce (and has the hub in their possession) other than one that might have been damaged by a Jersey Barrier (or some other such stupidity)? As the saying goes, SHOW ME THE MONEY (umm hub).

Last week I won a set of Selectro hubs on Ebay. They were described as less than a year old and in need of a good cleaning an grease. When I received them, I disassembled, cleaned and inspected them. I found that they both had busted splines and the plastic engagement ramps were broken. I sent them back to the seller after he agreed to give me a full refund. He said they were used by a friend on a Chevy pickup truck that had rockwell axles. He said it only had 44" tires and a carburated engine. To my surprise, they were trashed! I did find new replacement parts but it just was not worth it to me. I think for most of us with deuces, any of the hubs(new) available would do just fine for how we drive our trucks.

 

[steelsoldiers]

It seems this topic has run its course. OEM and Jatonka have had a chance to make their points. Lots of members have chimed in on both sides of the issue. I am closing this one up before it degenerates any further. If you would like to continue the discussion, feel free to PM each other, but do not start another thread. I would like to thank Gerhard for his detailed comparison photos and measurements. I appreciate the input of all the other membership as well.

It seems that AVM and OEM hubs are both viable competitors in the deuce hub market. Do your homework and buy whichever hubs you feel will suit you the best.