AVM vs Ouverson: take a closer look!

[jwaller]

hey randy how about some hubs for a 5T?

 

[sprucemt]

Rizzo --- I too have been wondering what the heck is going on here and why

It's about AVM Brazil's loyalty to their distributors and money.

I am still awaiting Gerhard's full disclosure.

 

[AJMBLAZER]

I don't have a dog in this fight...and I don't own a deuce and a half or even the axles...

...but for the simple reasons of them having the same price, the OEM's o-rings, all metal construction, and the obviously better contact patch on the splines I'd take the Ouverson stuff.

Spline contact matters when under stress. You want as much contact between the splines of the axleshaft and the teeth of the "gear" on it. This is similar to the ring and pinion inside of an axle. A proper pattern has a full and broad contact pattern. Too little and you're running the risk of shattering the teeth of the ring. Has happened more than once.

I come to this from the 4x4 and offroading frame of reference and from the features illustrated in this thread alone I'd choose the Ouverson hubs. They're simply designed better for harsh use. I'm not saying the AVM hubs are junk or they wouldn't live a long happy life on someone's play toy deuce but they wouldn't be my choice for hard use. Their design reminds me of many of the "down market" 4x4 hubs available for light trucks when compared to the Warn Premium hubs (which incidentally use O-ring seals) and other "high market" specialty hubs.

Again, just observing from the outside.

 

[dabtl]

I don't have a dog in this fight...and I don't own a deuce and a half or even the axles...

...but for the simple reasons of them having the same price, the OEM's o-rings, all metal construction, and the obviously better contact patch on the splines I'd take the Ouverson stuff.

Spline contact matters when under stress. You want as much contact between the splines of the axleshaft and the teeth of the "gear" on it. This is similar to the ring and pinion inside of an axle. A proper pattern has a full and broad contact pattern. Too little and you're running the risk of shattering the teeth of the ring. Has happened more than once.

I come to this from the 4x4 and offroading frame of reference and from the features illustrated in this thread alone I'd choose the Ouverson hubs. They're simply designed better for harsh use. I'm not saying the AVM hubs are junk or they wouldn't live a long happy life on someone's play toy deuce but they wouldn't be my choice for hard use. Their design reminds me of many of the "down market" 4x4 hubs available for light trucks when compared to the Warn Premium hubs (which incidentally use O-ring seals) and other "high market" specialty hubs.

Again, just observing from the outside.

I just love the 'girly' references when comparing inanimate objects. However, you are absolutely correct about the contact pattern on gears. But, the gee whiz drawing by Gerhard showing gear pattern contact is exaggerated, while your concern about the contact pattern is well founded, who says the contact pattern on either hub is insufficient?

In my opinion, what we have in this thread is a subtle sales effort for Ouverson hubs by disparaging the AVM hubs. From my first post, I have pointed out that John Tennis must be selling a bunch of the AVM hubs to warrant this kind of effort. I stand by that.

 

[gringeltaube]

OK, forget about drawings and words, let the pics and dialmeter readings talk for themselves....

Just let me know if you need to see anything else, before I put everything back together...

G.

 

[AJMBLAZER]

I just love the 'girly' references when comparing inanimate objects. However, you are absolutely correct about the contact pattern on gears. But, the gee whiz drawing by Gerhard showing gear pattern contact is exaggerated, while your concern about the contact pattern is well founded, who says the contact pattern on either hub is insufficient?

In my opinion, what we have in this thread is a subtle sales effort for Ouverson hubs by disparaging the AVM hubs. From my first post, I have pointed out that John Tennis must be selling a bunch of the AVM hubs to warrant this kind of effort. I stand by that.

Again, and I'm not disparaging anyone or any of the products but coming from my experiences...it sure looks like the Ouverson stuff is built to wheel. The AVM stuff would probably be fine under most deuces doing the stuff deuces do. Even deuces that work for a living. The features they have just don't look to me to be built to do the stuff I would want. If the prices are the same or similar why not buy the one with the extra safety built in?

For the record I wasn't saying one was girly. I was just pointing out that the AVM hubs don't align with the higher market light duty locking hubs, they are more along the lines of the Mile Marker and ProComp lower end ones. I wheeled a set of down market hubs on my Ranger for years without any trouble. However if I was using it hard core a set of Warn Premiums would have been my choice. Especially if the price difference was minor.

Not trying to be confrontational but again this seems like one guy, who obviously knows a bit about this sort of thing and has the tools and devices to prove it, posting up his experiences and concerns backed up by his examinations being acosted by someone who feels he is wrong. Every time he posts up or someone else posts up you jump up and down having a fit casting aspersions on what they have to say. That's just the way it looks.

For the record I had never even heard of AVM hubs for deuces until a few months back on here. In the 4x4 world I don't beleive I've ever heard of them while I have heard of Ouverson (and always in a good light). Does that mean AVM's stuff is crap? No. Does that mean they're built to do different things? Yeah, obviously. I know guys that break Rockwell parts often with their wheeling rigs...how many people have done that with their Deuces here?

 

[dabtl]

Not trying to be confrontational but again this seems like one guy, who obviously knows a bit about this sort of thing and has the tools and devices to prove it, posting up his experiences and concerns backed up by his examinations being acosted by someone who feels he is wrong. Every time he posts up or someone else posts up you jump up and down having a fit casting aspersions on what they have to say. That's just the way it looks.

The problem with Gerhard's posts are more than obvious. There are differences between the hubs specifications. Measuring here and there and finding a difference has no meaning. Other than to claim some difference between the hubs, what is he showing? Just differences which are obviously designed differences for different geometry in the hubs. Big deal.

Gerhard is simply attacking AVM for his own purposes, whatever those may be.

 

[sprucemt]

gringeltaube
Post subject: Posted: Apr 12, 2008 - 01:06 AM

2 Star General




" When I "inspected" my first 4 Ouverson hubs I found something I did not like, corrected it and sent words and pics to let Randy know but never got an answer....!

Now I'm still waiting for my AVMs to arrive... (hopefully next week... )
It is my intention to disassemble them to the last piece like I did with Ouversons and try to make a fair comparison based on size, material and appearance of components. Specially how each manufacturer solved the seal question.
It is clear that this would allow for just a "first impression"; the last word would only result from a real world test, for example putting one of each brand on the same front axle, same truck, same conditions...which I doubt even the factory does! "

Gerhard

Gerhard, could you please expand on your first paragraph of your post of April 12th of o8. I am quite suprised that you did not give the steelsoldiers community or Randy Ouverson the same courtesy of a massive disection of the above mentioned hub as you have with AVM Brazil.

 

[Trango]

To the casual observer, Gerhardt's post may look biased.... but from what I've seen in the (how many?) years I've been here (and even on the old server before that), his dedication to the M35 and overall MV hobby is nothing short of extraordinary. His vehicles are polished, well built, and frankly, I wonder how one man (who presumably must take care of the "quotidien" much as we do) can accomplish all that he does with his MV's.

Moreover, his posts *here* reflect that same enthusiasm and detail, often with detailed tech drawings, annotations on pictures, to such a degree that I honestly, again, wonder how he gets it all done.

This post seems to me like no exception to that trend. He has presented all information factually, with little editorializing except for what these features mean for him for performance, or what benefits/downsides they've already caused (as in the case of the plastic bits that required extraordinary finesse to dis- and re-assemble).

Based on at least his needs, it seems that AVM has some design concerns that would steer him away. But for me, the first few posts had not caused me any great pause. The issue of plastic parts and o-ring designs was not of concern for me, as I have used many many many lockouts with plastic rings without issue, and I moreover my truck doesn't see much wet. Even the quarter-turn v. three-quarter-turn engagement debate has some "leverage" with me but overall my claws don't have issue with that. About the only thing that caused me to say "hunh" was the note that the AVM interior gear is a bit rattly, but that could be from many causes.

Now, with this last post, the pressure angle on splines is of concern. That actually does have consequences during hard service. With sufficient metallurgical hardening, the effects are minimal (light rounding of the vertices), but heavy use will eventually mold the softer spline (I'd guess the axleshaft in this instance) to conform with the harder spline. Will this happen under service in the M35, will something else give first, or what?

Again, Gerhardt does not editorialize on this tack. Indeed, it would be premature to do so with regards to potential issues in the M35, unless one were very well versed in the engineering and long term service results of differing pressure spline angles, with a complete knowledge of all of the variables seen here (expected max torque at each wheel, with full blueprinting and materials knowledge of each side of the interface). Perhaps our only hope to know this is to have someone with an AVM, who has pressed their front axle into hard, driving service, to do a post with the sort of detail and clarity as gringel.


Thanks, Gerhardt, for your side-by-side comparisons in this post, and in general, for all of your tech-related posts. Even for being halfway around the world, you are able to source out and report on componentry (mostly American-derived) that applies to the M35 platform, and your contributions over the years have been great to read

With much appreciation,
Bob



Full, non-unbiased disclosure time about purchase preference:

For me, Gerhardt's last post does change my purchasing behavior related to both products, but not necessarily for the worse. I state both my newfound impressions as well as my past purchases here for full disclosure.

For my deuce, I'd still probably choose whatever came up on an auction for $300 (I have too many projects going on right now to spend retail pricing).

For my rockcrawler, it looks as though (as I have done with the alloy front shafts in my rear-steer axle) I'd likely buy from Ouverson. The above post does not heavily sway my existing preference, since I've previously found that Ouverson and his HP-happy tribe of mudtruck enthusiasts make the strongest stuff in the aftermarket for the M35 axles. That said, it does eliminate AVM from that application, since with the torque and reduction that my healthy American V8 puts out, I need all of the strength I can get.

Ok time to get off to putting together breakfast, and maybe open up the curtains a bit. Ay, que tanto vino tinto anoche!

Best,
Bob

 

[HeadWizard]

QUESTION: Does anyone have personal knowledge of (ACTUALLY SEEN) any one of these hubs that are being discussed that were ACTUALLY BROKEN during use (other than running them into a Jersey barrier or some other such stupidity) ? Please show us.

So... no response to the above.

I'll suggest again - why don't we all go get a soda pop and find something more important to do - like work on our trucks.

Ouverson = good guy and good product.
AVM = Good product and JT good guy.

So far no broken parts pictures..........

With all due respect to the hard work and lengthy paragraphs written here, this thread is getting tiring - I'm going to work on my truck and drink a beer.

Happy Memorial Day weekend.

 

[gringeltaube]

So one final word please...also to respond to Don:

What I didn’t like was the tight fit of the bearing in its seat, something that was easy to fix for me and I think Randy had already corrected by the time I received his hubs. He had lost all addresses due to his computer crash so he couldn’t respond at that time. A few weeks ago I finally got mail from a manufacturer that proved to be very open and thankful to customer feedback to make his product better every time. He did appreciate my advice. Nothing less, nothing more!

And… isn’t that all we would expect from our suppliers in this super-hobby? Get the best for our money and knowing that they do everything to make their products even better? Wouldn’t you get upset if a supplier declares you incompetent instead of himself stepping down a bit and going back to his drawing board or better watch his assembly line and control staff, just in case?

What might appear as an attack to AVM could also be an indirect way of letting them know that it is time for some revision and improvements. And if they now react positively it will be a great advantage for all of us. And a sound competition usually has one big winner: the final customer! That’s my only purpose and the way I see it.
Thanks to everybody else who also looks at it the same way.

Back to our toys!

Gerhard

 

[dabtl]

Ok, so it is all about hurt feelings? Thanks for the update.

 

[Elwenil]

No, it's about customer satisfaction. You support JT, and rightly so, but how would you feel if you called a place of business with an issue with a product they sold or manufactured and he blew you off? Would you do business with them again? I personally think the hub comparison is also a good comparison of larger manufacturers and smaller businesses like Ouverson and JT. AVM wasn't interested in Gerhard's input, while Ouverson has been open to input from wheelers and MV owners alike. You could say that the four wheeling/rock crawling industry is driven by the enthusiastic who enjoy the hobby and are looking for products or improvements to products that are not yet made. A lot of the wheeling gear out there is a direct result of some guy breaking something and wanting something better. I know we can all think of businesses that have treated us like we want to be treated and some that have not. In this case, the AVM hub had an issue that is fairly common with lip seals in many products. According to Gerhard, AVM was less than appreciative of his discovery of this issue. I myself have either called, written or Emailed a few companies with issues over a product or two and was kind of blown off with a "Thank you for your input, we hope you continue to buy our product, here's a $2 coupon" message. It's a little impersonal, but probably necessary with the volume of contacts they get and I don't really fault them for it. I do wonder if my comments were taken seriously or to heart though. If one of those companies chose to tell me that I must have made a mistake, when I know I didn't, I am pretty sure I would be turned off to the company regardless of the product.

In this case, Gerhard has proven his case that there are a few design points with the AVM hub that are questionable. His photos seems to prove his case pretty well. For those who have a problem with this comparison, instead of just saying Gerhard has some personal issue with AVM or is "disparaging" their product, why not try to prove him wrong? Prove that the problems he has pointed out are not important. In short, prove that your faith in the AVM hub is justified.

 

[AJMBLAZER]

I agree. Seems like he has valid issues with this and no one has done anything but try and throw poo at him...continuously.


Stuff like this is very common on the 4x4 forums I frequent. This is how people hash out products and what to buy. A weather eye is a good thing in most cases and most of the folks I know on those forums don't have the money, experience, or time to get into in depth metallurgical or whatnot exams of parts they might not even own. These two designs have their own high points but it is obvious that they are also coming from two different trains of thought.
Go compare some of the early Willys jeep lockout hubs with some of the modern Warn Premiums and I think you'd see what I've been saying.

 

[dabtl]

No, it's about customer satisfaction. You support JT, and rightly so, but how would you feel if you called a place of business with an issue with a product they sold or manufactured and he blew you off? Would you do business with them again? I personally think the hub comparison is also a good comparison of larger manufacturers and smaller businesses like Ouverson and JT. AVM wasn't interested in Gerhard's input, while Ouverson has been open to input from wheelers and MV owners alike. You could say that the four wheeling/rock crawling industry is driven by the enthusiastic who enjoy the hobby and are looking for products or improvements to products that are not yet made. A lot of the wheeling gear out there is a direct result of some guy breaking something and wanting something better. I know we can all think of businesses that have treated us like we want to be treated and some that have not. In this case, the AVM hub had an issue that is fairly common with lip seals in many products. According to Gerhard, AVM was less than appreciative of his discovery of this issue. I myself have either called, written or Emailed a few companies with issues over a product or two and was kind of blown off with a "Thank you for your input, we hope you continue to buy our product, here's a $2 coupon" message. It's a little impersonal, but probably necessary with the volume of contacts they get and I don't really fault them for it. I do wonder if my comments were taken seriously or to heart though. If one of those companies chose to tell me that I must have made a mistake, when I know I didn't, I am pretty sure I would be turned off to the company regardless of the product.

In this case, Gerhard has proven his case that there are a few design points with the AVM hub that are questionable. His photos seems to prove his case pretty well. For those who have a problem with this comparison, instead of just saying Gerhard has some personal issue with AVM or is "disparaging" their product, why not try to prove him wrong? Prove that the problems he has pointed out are not important. In short, prove that your faith in the AVM hub is justified.

OK, AVM is an elitist corporation who did not listen to Gerhard's suggestions, although Gerhard does not claim to a mechanical engineer. So, by comparison of two different designs he attempts to disparage the company with whom he has a personal vendetta.

While I prefer my Para Carry6 it is designed somewhat differently from my Colt M1911A. That does not mean either design is faulty, only designed differently and built according to the design.

From the start I said this was product disparagement and Gerhard admits it is a result of his personal dispute. Note, I also said Gerhard should build his own hubs and we can compare the improved Gerhard design over the others.

First of all someone should post the problems they are actually having with the AVM hubs. Then we can determine if there is anything other than disparagement or speculation at work here.

So far as a search shows, only Gerhard has complained about the Ouverson units, and that was some time ago. And, so far as a search shows, only Gerhard has complained about the AVM hubs. Not much of a survey.

 

[Offroadfabworks]

opcorn: opcorn:

 

[m376x6]

Just a thought.

How would this thread have turned out if John T sold Ouverson's hubs as well. I'd feel better. Is this possible? I mean really, would Randy consider offering John an opportunity to help sell his excellent hubs. Would John consider also including them in his inventory. It might be win/win for everyone. Some folks are just too loyal to good folks to even consider putting something they're associated with in a bad light. Someone mentioned they've never heard of AVM. The Superwinch hubs were/are AVM's. Absolutely do not misconstrue this as something about the AVM's John is helping everyone out with by selling. I've had to quit using Superwinch hubs over the last 2 years because I've gone through three sets. The splined hardened steel collar snaps and takes out the outer housing. The only other make available is Selectro. A number of folks who are selling Selectro and using them started having problems with the hubs not going on. I took in a set from (ah crap, brain freeze here) the nice gent up in Idaho and inspected them, also got a set from Mile Marker directly, the splines were going south and everyone was having problems. Talked to a chap up in Washington where they assemble the 11022-01's and sent him the sets and an NOS stub end. They made corrections to their tooling and I haven't heard of any fit problems since. The Superwinchs seem to be fine for stock M37's with stock size tires, but can't handle the tall tires and V8's. The spline fitting is poor on their 508's. Have a wonderful holiday this weekend, Please remember what it is actually about and the challenges our country is facing and will face in the immediate future.

Best Regards,
Bryan

 

[m376x6]

opcorn: opcorn:

As much popcorn as we're eating here, I think all that butter might be bad for us.

 

[sprucemt]

I have a ton of responses for all your recent post's. I just don't have time now.

But please think this thru.

If Gerhard dis-closed from the start of this post, that he had multiple serious issues with AVM Brazil, How would all of you felt about this alledgedly un-biased breakdown of the AVM hub then?

As far back as September 07, I was aware something like this was going to happen. And if you check ALL the post's in regards to lockout hubs, on this site, it just might suprise you what bits of data are out there.

 

[Trango]

I have a ton of responses for all your recent post's. I just don't have time now.

But please think this thru.

If Gerhard dis-closed from the start of this post, that he had multiple serious issues with AVM Brazil, How would all of you felt about this alledgedly un-biased breakdown of the AVM hub then?

I think disclosure of bias are important, but I think presentation of facts are also of interest. I moreover think there are enough people with enough sense out there to sort through facts themselves and come up with their own conclusion.

What are these "serious issues" you mention here? Also, what is the predicating moment when you realized that such an issue would be possible?

I'd appreciate your response. I'm just curious, more than anything. Again, I'm not in the hub market (and I have no dogs or bets in this fight), but I am sort of interested in the "greater truth".