Axle seal quality

[Tinwoodsman]

I have read several threads which discussed axle seals that are of questionable tolerances causing bearing to get hot. One thread outlined a way to reform the seal to eliminate this problem but I do not have the technical skill to do this. I would like to know if anyone can recommend a vendor who can provide high quality seals that I can install with confidence and not have to worry about modifications.

 

[dkeven]

pretty much all the aftermarket seals will work, the problems lie in installation and over thinking it. The bearings are no different than the old front spindle bearings all cars used to have albeit much larger. Several methods of install have been discussed, torque to 50 back off 1/8 to 1/4, tighten till it binds, back off a flat or two. Any seal interference would shortly find itself friction removed on the first drive. If you have done bearings before your okay if not get someone who has to assist a few times. again these were designed to be maintained by practically anyone with a mechanical inclination.

 

[Bill W]

I still have one hot hub in the back that I've done everything but change out the seal ( to a different brand ) so I ordered Timkin made seal from Memphis ( $10.50 ) and will be installing that when it arrives in the next day or so and I will report back. For the record I have new bearings and races ( cups & cones) new shoes that I adjusted with a feeler gauge by the book ( wheel free spins without shoes touching ) I tightened bearing nut to 50ft/lbs and backed off 1/8 and came back after test run and tried it at 1/4 ,still hot ( 40° hotter then the other rears ) I even changed out the bearing grease. If this Timken seal doesn't work then I'm gonna put the old outer bearing back in as its only the outer part of the hub is the hottest and gets cooler as I move the thermo gauge back towards the drum????

 

[zak]

Bill did you try the shim between the bearing and the seal? It was the thing that worked for me with the new star seals. My hub got so hot after a short drive you couldn't put your hand on it. If I remember right it was about .080. But then the "right" seal is all ways better ( if Timkin is still made in the US)

 

[Bill W]

Larry
I read your past post about the shim but if I remember right you machined the shim yourself, I don't have the talent/tools to do that so I'm hoping the new/different seal works

 

[dkeven]

interested in seeing the results of your seal exchange, I do not see the seal flexible material lasting long enough to keep it in contact with the rotating bearing and generating heat for long. What I have seen is some incompatable bearing and race combos listed on vendor sites for outer bearings. Figured it was a misprint but would verify part numbers to be sure.

 

[zak]

Bill from what I've seen of your work you may not have the tools but you got the talent. Post on the timkin seal results.

 

[Bill W]

OK
I got the new seals and they look like they to are "New Star" seals ( same # stamped in the same place ) anyhow I went and installed one,ran truck and still hot, Sooo...I cut down one of the seals and used it as a spacer ( seal metal is about .058 ) buttoned everything up and ran the truck and it is now my coolest running rear hub., I was a skeptic about the oil seal being the culprit even after reading the excellent post Gringeltaube did on the this problem but now I am a true believer. Zak you said you did your at .080 but Gringel stated he offset his seal by .040 (1mm) now mine is at .058, the seal does seem to be seated against the race so I'm thinkin I'm ok
Dkeven
You probably shaking your head and I don't blame you, as I mentioned earlier I did the seal/shim fix as a last resort as I myself did not think it could make a hub that hot.

Now on a side note
My other 3 rear hubs are fine and I bought all the seals for the rears at the same place??..go figure

 

[dkeven]

great to hear it worked out, sucks it took another seal to do though, will have to hit mine with the IR gun after a run to see if any problems there replaced them all recently. Just another thing to try and remember to check, finally got all the leaks for the moment the other day.

 

[zak]

We need somebody with a 20 year old NOS seal still in the package to get thickness measurement against the New Star one.

 

[gringeltaube]

OK,.... think it's my turn again......

I got real lucky to be able to get about 20 of the OEM outer seals from this guy: sandcobra164 He still might have some left...???

These sure are built different, with the that kind of mini diaphragm pressure plate built in to the back side of it's relatively soft rubber lip, for improved resilience. Just by touch/feel one could easily tell that they are much more elastic than those chin-chu-lin aftermarkets.

At this time they are underway to my country inside a 20' container, together with many other nice goodies I personally loaded last week in FL...
Once back in my hands I would gladly do a side-by-side comparison with pics and measurements, if there is interest.

This is how they look like on the back- or outside........ that's a SEAL!

Gerhard

 

[sandcobra164]

G,
I'm glad your parts arrived safely. I do have more seals but they are reserved for my truck. I've personally experienced the hot hub issue from a Chinese Seal and now I'm experiencing the normal temp hub but slightly leaking again issue on that same wheel. That seal probably has less than 500 miles on it at that.

 

[Bill W]

"That seal probably has less than 500 miles on it at that."
SC
Are you talking about the (new) oem seal or the import seal started failing

 

[Heavysteven]

My front hubs have new star seals with high temp grease and run cool.

 

[sandcobra164]

I'm referring to the import seal that I installed prior to learning of their troubles. It will soon be replaced with a OEM.

 

[deuceman51]

Bad part is that the OEM are going to be nearly gone soon and the new star is all that will be left. I've used new star seals without any trouble. Keep in mind that most of the new star parts are made by KIA in south korea and they produce those parts for their military M35s, i'm sure their quality has to be better than china.

 

[gringeltaube]

Exactly those NS aftermarket seals are the problematic ones. Not sure where they are made, though.... When I say "chinchulin" I refer to all Asiatic products. Probably KIA is using better stuff for themselves...??

These NS seals still are better than nothing and I have been using them for quiet a while, now. Problem is, from factory they fit to tight and are not flexible enough. So, in order to avoid the known consequences they need to be installed by either using an adequate 1mm spacer shim or modify them by slightly pressing IN just the center portion to achieve that same offset.

Pics showing before and after mods....


G.

 

[Bill W]

I still find it odd that I have New Star outer seals on all 4 of my rears but only had to shim one hub, I can rest my hand on the other three???

 

[sandcobra164]

I'm not an expert on the subject but I will toss this out. I picked up quite a few inner's and outer's that my local NG unit was going to toss due to the fact that Deuce parts are no longer authorized in any military unit. The Deuce's we have are all headed to DRMO / GL. I scooped those parts up, made mention that I would bring them to the GA rally and G PM'd me and bought all the extra's. I'm certainly keeping what I do have left. He's done alot of research and has figured out how the make the import seals last for a few drives. He was also very motivated to get the last of my excess bench stock if that says anything for the OEM Seals. All I can say is "Yes there is a difference and I've been down the hot hub then cold leaky hub with the chinese axle seals" in under 500 miles. I can't wait till I tear the axles down and put the right seals in. G may not know what he's talking about but he bought the OEM seals that had in a flash. I'll only mention that he happily paid what the cheap red star seals go for without hesitation. I suppose he got a deal but he taught me to respect putting the right parts back on the truck.

 

[Bill W]

" G may not know what he's talking about but he bought the OEM seals that had in a flash"

Actually G does know what he's talking about Sandcobra
Theres plenty of OEM seals still out there and I will be looking for some also being I to have little faith in the imports