California CDL: Another Clarification (long)

[bajajoaquin]

Hi, all. I'm a fairly new member, who's been mostly lurking while shopping for my first Deuce. Since I'm in California, the licensing laws are of particular concern. While reading posts, I came across this from jpinst:

"I dont want to beat a dead horse, but this lawyer has researched the sh%t out of those alleged laws, and it just does is not the case. Only applies to 3 axeld "commercial vehicle." The test lies in the definition of commercial vehicle, not the description of who needs a CDL. An MV does not fit the test of commercial vehicle, and twisting the definition it to try and make it fit is not how the law is construed. Read the legislative commnts and the case law. Ok I'm Done."

So I've done some searching in the vehicle codes. Here's what I've found:

1. Section 260, "Definitions:"
260. (a) A "commercial vehicle" is a motor vehicle of a type required to be registered under this code used or maintained for the transportation of persons for hire, compensation, or profit or designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property.
...
(d) The definition of a commercial vehicle in this section does not apply to Chapter 7 (commencing with Section 15200) of Division 6.

2. Section 15200, "Legislative Intent:"
15200. It is the intent of the Legislature, in enacting this chapter, ... to reduce or prevent commercial motor vehicle accidents....

To the extent that this chapter conflicts with general driver licensing provisions, this chapter shall prevail. Where this chapter is silent, the general driver licensing provisions shall apply.

3. Section 15210, "Definitions:"
(b) (1) "Commercial motor vehicle" means any vehicle or combination of vehicles that requires a class A or class B license, or a class C license with an endorsement issued pursuant to paragraph ( )1 (5) of subdivision (a) of Section 15278

4. California Commercial Driver's Handbook:

To operate commercial vehicles, you must apply for a CDL.

A commercial motor vehicle is a motor vehicle or combination of vehicles designed or used for either the transportation of persons for compensation or property and:

• Has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,001 pounds or more.
• Tows any vehicle with a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more.
• Tows more than one vehicle or a trailer bus.
• Has three or more axles (excludes three axle vehicles weighing 6,000 pounds or less gross).
• Is any vehicle (bus, farm labor vehicle, general public paratransit vehicle, etc.) designed, used, or maintained to carry more than 10 passengers including the driver, for hire or profit, or is used by any nonprofit organization or group.

Okay, what does that all mean? Except for the strict definitions of Class A and B licenses, which I can't find, it means that jpinst's point about the definition of a commercial vehicle looks to be correct.

The deuce was not designed, and will not be maintained or used (by me) in the pursuit of payment, so is therefore not a commercial vehicle.

However, I can't find the exact vehicle code that actually defines the license types. Nor can I find the case law he describes. Depending on the language, these two requirements could trump the commercial vehicle definition.

Perhaps jpinst will join us and add more clarity?

 

[steelandcanvas]

Do a SEARCH on this. This has been "beat to death" in this Forum.

 

[bajajoaquin]

I did. There are 12 threads with the words "California license." I found lots of different information:

*If it's not a commercial vehicle, you don't need anything
*You need a class B
*The ins-and-outs of historical plates
*Lots of out-of-California info.

However, when I searched for CA licensing laws, I could only find summaries of the licenses, not the actual statutes that defined them. The only thing these summaries said on the non-commercial Class B part was that it allowed you to drive an RV over 40 feet, which means that the Class B advice either wasn't valid, or the summary wasn't complete.

So, depending on exactly how the law is written for Class A and B licenses, it may or may not depend on the definition of "commercial."

 

[WillWagner]

Indeed, he did search. He has also done some great research. Thanks!

 

[Floyd]

The only problem with everyones research is you still need a CDL.

Floyd

 

[rchalmers3]

The only problem with everyones research is you still need a CDL.

Floyd

Please explain.

What I got out of bajajoaquin's research ( and jpinst's quote) is that the intended use is the determiner. If you intend to use the truck for commercial purposes, you need a CDL. Period. That seems clear to me, but you apparently believe otherwise??

Rick

 

[wsucougarx]

You need a CDL for a deuce in California, no way around it

 

[tractor]

Get something smaller. I have a 1/2 ton Dodge for sale in CA in the classified section.

 

[ida34]

I was pretty sure I checked into this at one time and a CDL is not required but CA has non-CDL class A and B driver's licenses.

 

[hole]

It seems that by the letter of the law you need a cdl. I've asked a few LEO's and gotten mixed results as to this question. Some said yes,some said no, as long as you have histoicl plates and arent carrying a load your ok. Theres a fair number of us hrer in so cal and most of us do not have cdl's

 

[ida34]

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dl/dl_info.htm#CDLHere is a cut an past version of what I am saying.

How to apply for a noncommercial driver license


A noncommercial driver license is issued in the following two classes:

• Noncommercial Class A
• Noncommercial Class B

A Noncommercial Class A license is required if you tow:

• a travel trailer weighing over 10,000 lbs. Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) which is not used for hire.
• a fifth-wheel travel trailer weighting over 15,000 lbs. GVWR which is not used for hire.
• a livestock trailer that is not for hire, weight over 10,000 lbs. GVWR but not over 15,000 lbs. GVWR, and is operated within 150 miles of the farm by a farmer to transport livestock.

A Noncommercial Class B license and endorsement is required if you operate:

• A housecar over 40 feet but not over 45 feet. Exemptions: Holders of a commercial Class A or B license, a noncommercial Class A license, and all fire fighter license classes.

Requirements for a Noncommercial Class A driver permit

To apply for a Noncommercial Class A permit, you must:

• Visit a DMV office (make an Appointment(s) for faster service)
• Complete a Driver License or Identification Card Application form (DL 44C). (An original DL 44C form must be submitted. Copies are not acceptable.)
• Give a thumb print
• Have your picture taken
• Verify your birth date and legal presence (you may use your California driver license). If your current name no longer matches the name on your birth date/legal presence document, see "True Full Name" and "How to Change Your Name" for more information. Provide your true full name if your name no longer matches the name on your birth data legal presence document."
• Pay the application fee
• Pass a vision exam
• Submit a Health Questionnaire (DL 546) dated not more than two years prior to the date of your application
• Pass the traffic laws and sign tests for the class of vehicle you currently have and also the Noncommercial Class A Vehicles test

Note: To allow you sufficient time for testing DMV will not be administering written or audio exams after 4:30 p.m.
Once you have completed these requirements, you will be issued a permit. You can only drive with a person who has a California driver license in the same class as your permit and meets the age requirements.
Requirements for a Noncommercial Class A driver license

To obtain a Noncommercial Class A license you must:

• Have completed all the requirements for a Noncommercial Class A permit
• Call a DMV CDL office and make an appointment for a driving test (Cannot be made for the same day) (Noncommercial Class A driving test appointments cannot be made online)
• Bring the Noncommercial Class A vehicle with you
• Pass a pre-trip inspection
• Pass a skills test
• Pass a driving test

After you pass your driving test, you will be issued an interim license valid until you receive your new photo license in the mail. Verify your address before you leave DMV. Notify the DMV representative if you have moved or if your address is incorrect. If you have not received your photo license within 60 days, call 1-800-777-0133 to check the status. You will need to provide information from your interim license.
Requirements for a Noncommercial Class B driver permit

To apply for a Noncommercial Class B permit, you must:

• Visit a DMV office (make an Appointment(s) for faster service)
• Complete a Driver License or Identification Card Application form (DL 44 or DL 44C).Driver License or Identification Card Application form (DL 44C). (An original DL 44C form must be submitted. Copies are not acceptable.)
• Give a thumb print
• Have your picture taken
• Verify your birth date and legal presence (you may use your California driver license). If your current name no longer matches the name on your birth date/legal presence document, see "True Full Name" and "How to Change Your Name" for more information. Provide your true full name if your name no longer matches the name on your birth date legal presence document.
• Pay the application fee for a 5-year license
• Pass a vision exam
• Submit a Physician’s Health Report (DL 546A) dated not more than two years prior to the date of your application
• Pass the traffic laws and sign tests for the class of vehicle your currently have and also the Driver’s Examination for 45’Housecars test

Note: To allow you sufficient time for testing DMV will not be administering written or audio exams after 4:30 p.m.
Once you have passed your test, you will be issued a permit. You can only drive with a person who has a California driver license in the same class as your permit and meets the age requirements.
Requirements for a Noncommercial Class B driver license

To obtain a Noncommercial Class B license, you must:

• Have completed all the requirements for a Noncommercial Class B permit
• Call a DMV CDL office and make an appointment for a driving test (Cannot be made for the same day) (Noncommercial Class B driving test appointments cannot be made online)
• Bring the housecar with you
• Perform a vehicle safety check. NOTE: If your vehicle is equipped with air brakes, you are not required to pass an air brake law test or perform an air brake system check.
• Pass a skills test
• Pass a driving test

 

[ida34]

From the CA DMV website. Link below. I am correct. You would need a non-commercial class A. The requirements are different so you do no need a CDL class A. You need a non-commercial class A. This only applies if you are not using the vehicle to make money.
Click here for the DMV site page with the info

I could not get the exact quote and the above info on the same post due to it being near 10000 characters.


Please be advised that there are sure to be several people come in and try to contradict what I am saying and that is why I post the link and cut and past the appropriate section. Do your own research to make your own decision but there is a lot of disinformation about the subject going around.

 

[Djfreema]

Another thing to consider is that there is an impound authority for driving out of class. So if your street lawer argument about not needing a class B license doesnt go over well with the officer or it pisses him off, you can probably count on your truck being impounded and you having to find a ride back home. Sure you can go argue it in court and hope the judge sides with you but you'll still be out hundreds of dollars paying towing and storage fees.

 

[Floyd]

This is from the CA CDL Handbook.

 

[Floyd]

I couldn't get the immage to expand by clicking, but if you right click and open the link it'll work.

 

[nf6x]

Argh, not this dead horse again!

Either a Class B or Class A license is required to legally drive an unmodified M35A2C in California, no matter what your intended use is. A Class C license (the kind that regular car-drivers have) is not sufficient. This is different (and more stringent) than federal regulations and most other states' laws. I've researched this myself, and have consulted the Commercial Vehicle Enforcement guys at the CA Highway Patrol to verify.

From the original post, with the key phrase boldfaced and underlined:

1. Section 260, "Definitions:"
260. (a) A "commercial vehicle" is a motor vehicle of a type required to be registered under this code used or maintained for the transportation of persons for hire, compensation, or profit or designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property.

Because of this, even a pickup truck is considered a "commercial vehicle" in California, simply because it is designed primarily for hauling cargo. If you keep your eyes open as you drive around, you'll notice that cars and passenger-carrying SUVs have the non-commercial license number format (1ABC234), while pickup trucks and semis both have the commercial license number format (1A23456). THe pickup trucks are light enough to be driven on a Class C license, and it can be a non-commercial license if the truck isn't used for commercial purposes (if the truck is being used for commercial purposes, then you need a commercial Class C license).

Ok, so an M35A2 is considered a commercial vehicle in CA because it is designed primarily for hauling cargo, just like a pickup truck is. Now, we get into the area of required license class. This is another thing that commonly confuses people who aren't familiar with the CA vehicle code, in particular because it differs from federal regulations (and is more stringent). All of the usual features which put a non-tractor truck into the "B" class apply in California, such as "GVWR over 26,000 pounds". To folks who don't know CA law but do know federal requirements and/or their own state's laws, the M35A2 doesn't look like a Class B truck, since its GVWR is around 24,000 pounds. However, CA has one extra rule for putting trucks into the "B" class, and this is the one that catches the M35A2:

(2) Class B includes the following:
(A) A single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of more
than 26,000 pounds.
(B) A single vehicle with three or more axles, except any
three-axle vehicle weighing less than 6,000 pounds.
(C) A bus except a trailer bus.
(D) A farm labor vehicle.
(E) A single vehicle with three or more axles or a gross vehicle
weight rating of more than 26,000 pounds towing another vehicle with
a gross vehicle weight rating of 10,000 pounds or less.
(F) A house car over 40 feet in length, excluding safety devices
and safety bumpers.
(G) The operation of all vehicles covered under class C.

It's that danged third axle, along with weighing over 6,000 pounds (an unladen deuce weighs at least 12,000 pounds), that makes a deuce drop into the "B" class in California.

One thing that I will admit to being unsure about is whether a noncommercial Class B or Class A license is OK. I haven't read up on those lately, and I don't recall whether they only apply to motor homes, or also apply to any other vehicles in the A/B classes that aren't being used commercially. However, one thing I can be absolutely sure of is this:

An ordinary Class C driver's license is not sufficient for legally driving an M35A2 in California, no matter what you use the truck for.

 

[nf6x]

This is from the CA CDL Handbook.

That's from a handbook, not from the actual vehicle code, so it might not be 100% accurate. However, two things jump out from this:

1) An M35A2 is not included under the Class C license, because it has 3 axles and weighs over 6,000 pounds gross.

2) According to that handbook page, the non-commercial class B license only allow you to add "a housecar over 40 feet but not over 45 feet, with endorsement" to the list. I note that a deuce is a non-housecar and is well under 40 feet long... so this page implies that a non-commercial class B (or class A) license doesn't cover the deuce, assuming that the lists on this page didn't leave anything out.

By the way, whenever the phrase "with endorsement" shows up, that indicates that you need a specific additional thing listed on the license, generally requiring an additional test. So, if you have a regular run-of-the-mill Class C license, and something requires a "Class C license with endorsement", then you need to go to the DMV, take another test, and get that endorsement before you may drive that something. For example, there are endorsements that may be added to Class B or Class A commercial licenses for things like:

1) air brakes
2) tankers
3) double or triple trailers
4) hazardous materials

You need not only the correct license class, but also all of the necessary endorsements for a particular kind of vehicle and/or cargo.

 

[ida34]

I looked again and you would need a class B not a Class A.

 

[Alex400]

Question: If I were to drive a deuce into California, and I got pulled over for whatever reason, would they dock me for not having a CDL?

 

[jpinst]

Quit trying to scare everybody!

As I wrote before, I am a lawyer in CA with 9 years experience. I did my own research on this issue, and you do not need a CDL!

You can go ask all the police and other law enforcement personnel what they think the law is, and if they tell you a CDL of any calss or Non-COMM CDL is needed, they are wrong. Usually people ask lawyers to find out where they stand, as cops get a few months of academy training and have no basis to try and analyse a law that doesnot specifically cover your exact situation, as we have hear.

They are not lawyers, and no law on the books specifically addresses issue of a former military vehicle used for non commerical purposes. In fact, a reading of the aplicable codes themself imply that an M35 does not even fall into the class covered by CDL's as it was not designed to carry perople for hire, nor property.

If you look to other case law and codes in the state, you can find that military vehicles don't carry property as its defined by the law. Military material, cargo, etc is not the same as defined by law.

It took three years of study, and a big ass exam to learn just how to find this stuff. So let me add that If you want to get a multi engine commercial jet pilots license to fly your Piper cub, i don't think anybiody will object. And if a cop cites you for driving out of class, you may well have to fight it in court. That how life works. If a police officer is a dick, you are getting a ticket no matter what the situation call for.

The fine is probably going to be a lot less that annual phyical exams and trucking school or whatever. You can always ask your state legislators to remedy this problem with an exception just liek they did for house cars, etc. Too bad nobody thought of military vehicles when writing the law--and NO, I will never get any kind of CDL to drive my M35 in CA.

If you are ever pulled over, i would suggest bangaining with the officer for the lesser offense, but that said, don't ever let law enforcement officers take the place of an attorney. One day your simple questions and answers could land you in a world of $hit.