CUCV - air conditioner transplant?

[TexAndy]

Hah, what fortuitous timing.

I just learned that the evaporator coil on my chrysler concorde's A/C system is toast. $100 part... but $600 in labor just to get at it. They'd have to remove the entire dash assembly.

Compressor, lines, condensor are all solid. Evap coil is the only spot the mech could detect a leak.

I wonder how hard it would be to transplant the A/C system from a Chrysler concorde to a M1009?

 

[mkcoen]

The only really hard part about a 1009 a/c system is how to mount the compressor. If you get that figured out then a Vintage Air Blazer unit should work. You might even take it to their factory in San Antonio and see if they could figure the compressor set up too.

 

[Boreal21]

I would avoid OD Iron with a passion. They took my money for the Bolt in Air Conditioner and it simply doesn't fit. Tried to long to make it fit, let an auto AC guy try it, and then my truck mechanic and now can't get a reversal on the charge card because all that took over 30 days. First tried to get through to OD Iron but only managed to get one email returned that said I should find someone who knows what they are doing. Since then can net get them on the phone or email or feedback page. Even have the BBB looking into it but no response yet. Now I have to work on a solution to salvage what I can, suffer the loss, and avoid that company at all costs if they do re-appear.

Are you sure you're past the point of being able to do a chargeback? Seems like all of my cards allow at least 60 days if not 90. Anyway, something to look into.

Sorry it didn't work out for ya I was considering that kit myself.

 

[watkinssr]

I plan on doing the nostalgia under dash kit one of these days. If I ever get the thing on the road. Looks to me to be an ugly, but easier and cheaper way to do it.

 

[FireFighterHill]

Ehasson, have you read the install threads of the odiron a/c kit? several people have installed the kit and 2 people have made a thread with pics and tips.

Read through these http://www.steelsoldiers.com/cucv/27571-cucv-build-here-we-go-again-11.html#post299031

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/cucv/45642-od-iron-ac-install-ac-novice.html

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/cucv/20944-od-iron-ac.html

 

[MrBouncer]

I WAS TOLD that is wasnt that hard of a job. I WAS TOLD. it is some work but not extremely hard. convert to 12v use the absent alt bracket as ac bracket after market ac parts including duct work in dash and control switch. all around 750 in a weekend. I dont know of anyone who has done it... I WAS TOLD all of this when i looked into into for my 1028

 

[davo727]

Nostalgic air has a bracket kit for a sanden compressor that works without messing with the dual alternator setup.

 

[ehasson]

Yes, I am sure, ticked but sure. I put through the request for charge back on Visa and after 5 days got a letter back saying that it states clearly on OD Iron's website that I must return it within 30 days. Because of that I can not do a charge back. I argued that in order to do a return that same website states that you must have an RMA or it will not be accepted and that I can not get any response out of anyone at OD Iron to get an RMA. They didn't care about that part though.

Are you sure you're past the point of being able to do a chargeback? Seems like all of my cards allow at least 60 days if not 90. Anyway, something to look into.

Sorry it didn't work out for ya I was considering that kit myself.

 

[shkira]

AC in M1009

I know this is an old thread but wanted to post an update. As I had previously posted I retrofitted a suburban A6 (the old long radial compressor) into my CUCV w/o sacrificing the 24 V setup.
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/cucv/35232-reliability-6-2l-engine.html#post383254

I made the mistake of immediately converting over to R134. I wanted a system easily serviceable. I wrongly assumed that a large a system as a burb would be enough to cool a CUCV even w/o the insulation etc. WRONG! This is not the way to go with an old school system. After lousy performance in VA I added an aux electrical fan. Didn't help. I pretty much gave up resigned that I had kept all the original CUCV and added AC in the truck that worked (marginally), when I was going down the highway but suxd when I was in traffic, stop and go. In addition to the less than fantastic thermal working fluid R134 the lack of any heat insulation, twin exhaust under the floor didn't help. When I moved to AL I met some AC guys and they were convinced that they could get me cold.

So it started again. Certainly evil R134 was responsible! If I was going to do this I needed something better. I had crossed R12 of the list even before I went to the R134. I was so mad at R134 that I didn;t even want to consider things like Freeze 12 (80% R134 based). I decided on a top up alternative compatible with R12. These are propane/butane blends marketed under names such as Duracool, Envirosafe I12A, etc. Advertised they are as cool or colder than R12? Of course the system was polluted with PAG oil so that meant deconstructing everything and flushing the system components. Not a clean job. Then I needed to find mineral oil as that is hard to come by with the prevalence of R134 now. I spent alot of time battling with the correct way to charge, right pressures, etc. I got better performance then the R134. I get about 53 degrees on the highway with outside temps of 100 and 99% humidity. Still not happy as when I am back in traffic the temp shoots up to 75 degrees. I even changed my fan clutch thinking it wasn't pulling enough air through the condenser.

Through my research I learned the hardest vehicles to cool are: Rear drive, front mechanical fan.

I have now insulated the heck out the floors as you know you can about burn your hand on it.

I now got my hands on R12 and am once again recharging to see what kind of performance I get out of it with the ideal refrigeration cycle designed working fluid.

That should be in the next few days.

Lessons learned...
There must be a better way
- The stock A/C system is weak if you have severe heat. You will never be comfortable especially with R134. I can't speak to the aftermarket bolt on kits but piecing a system together is tough work which will require more mods. If you retrofit a stock system use R12.

- The heat absorbed in the CUCV is too large to be compensated by the stock system with R134 and products like Duracool, etc. Add insulation, heat to battle the heat sink. Added bonus is its actually bearable with sound on the inside. Matter of fact I can speak in a normal voice inside the truck on the cell and still be heard. "Hey it doesn't sound like you are driving with all the windows down!"

- Ensure you install a new compressor (not rebuilt). The rebuilds are trouble and don't last as long. You don;t want to go to all this effort and then have the compressor disintegrate on you forcing you to go back to square one and try to get all the bits and pieces out.

- The stock tube/fin or serpentine condenser is too small to compensate for the reduced efficiency of R134. If you go this route get a higher capacity parallel flow condenser (R134 donor vehicle).

- Seems the fan on the CUCV is smaller then some of the gasser engines. This is why the temp rise when I come to a stop, slow. Once air stops running across the condenser it heats up and takes a lot of driving to start to cool it down again. Even with an aux fan added it is not moving enough air. I am going to look for a larger engine fan and will need to work on the shroud to suck more air across the GM condenser. As wedged in, and stuff bolted to it as the condenser is now I am stuck with it.

- I will see how the R12 performs in the system but I suspect that I will still be looking for my bigger fan.

Bottomline is it is a lot of effort to retrofit/mod an existing 24 V system and keeping everything intact using a donor system. Also cutting up the original CUCV converting to 12V just for AC going this route is not worth it. You'll get the same effect as I did except you will have lost your 24 V. Maybe the bolt ons are less pain but the roof top variant would probably been a lot easier, with better results even with the roof supports.

Ok, was it worth all the effort...It is better having some A/C even at 75 degrees when you have AL heat and humidity. I am just continuing to work on this as I am not happy with all the time and effort I have put in so far to not have better vent temps when I am stopped. Highway is fine, but it warms up real fast when you start to stop and go.

When I get done with the R12 refill I will post some numbers

 

[Dave Kay]

Great write-up shkira! Thanks!

Lots of valuable details we ONLY learn the hard way are priceless when passed along. Plan to do an A/C work-up on my 1008 and would expect that its smaller cab-size will make a big diff in overall cooling efficiency. Using beacoup sound/thermal insulation helps retain cool air inside vehicle but sealing doors/windows/joints/vents is important too, because a Law of Physics states that heat ALWAYS wants to go to where cold is. So basically, you must seal the truck cab from heat ingress.

The only other thing I might ad is to get some serious LIMO_BLACKOUT stuff on as much glass as possible/legal. When I ran older cranes with cabs like greenhouses, I used that stuff a lot and believe me it helped better than 50% to block sunlight which heats up glass like crazy.

Looking forward to hearing anymore progress and GOOD LUCK!

 

[ODFever]

Shkira,

I just read this entire thread and think that your words of advice are great! Your lessons learned summarize what I've learned about having an 83 M1009 converted to 12v with an HR6 compressor/AC system pulled off of an 85 Blazer. The compressor locked up last summer. I replaced the compressor, evaporator coil, orifice tube, etc earlier this year. I was able to get my hands on enough fresh R12 to rebuild and charge the system. I live in Central FL and the cab gets warm at a red light with 108 degree heat index even with the AC on full blast. I'd like to insulate the heck out of my truck to help keep the heat and noise out like you did, but the seal around my topper doesn't keep out the rain. R12 WILL make a big difference in your truck. Please post pictures if you can of the position of your AC compressor. I'd like to see how it differs from my setup.

Thanks!

 

[shkira]

yes tint

Dave, Thanks. Yes, after I finally got the insulation in I was planning on going as dark on tint as I can. As much as I hate to violate the CUCV the thermal radiant heat loading is terrible and I need to do something. I had a vehicle many years ago that was white and had dark tint and despite 110+ temps it was never hot.

Of course the AC was great and R12.

After I get the R12 in the CUCV I hope it will be more manageable.

I did also change all the door gaskets so no whistle now when I go down the road. With as much stuff as is on the firewall that is the area which is still offending. But I am happy and do see a marked difference with all the floors done. You all know how hot the floor gets in these CUCVs when its original. Now the rubber mat stays cool to the touch so no more heat from the trani, engine, exhaust and road surface.

Now I just need to work on the heat rejection.

I do think you will be better off in an M1008 due to the smaller size, but would still recommend trying to go the R12 route, if you don't upgrade the condenser to a more modern R134 style. The tube and fin just doesn't hack it.

 

[shkira]

R12 in a CUCV

ODFever
I highly recommend the insulation. The more the better. LMC has a sound deading kit and top it off with the heat insulation kit. I added another 96 cu ft of heat insulation on top to cover the rear cargo area and any extra I put on top of the insulation in the passenger area. I ordered the LMC new full floor rubber mat kit and did the entire passenger and cargo area. I needed to replace that as the original was shredded and due for replace/refresh.

It is a little silly how high the floor is now with all the insulation but the truck not only is a lot cooler, but it sounds entirely differently. No more yelling to be heard!

Unfortunately, the top rubber cover doesn't fix perfectly with all the insulation no matter how much spray glue used. I will try to get some better glue underneath but don't suspect it will ever lay in there perfectly. Also a complaint I had was its tough to get the edges to stay either glued to the sides of the truck or to lay flat. The edges always curl up. If you do the floors leave a lot extra. I trimmed too much and regret not having more to try to go up the sides versus the curl.

Before you start with the insulation I would definitely replace the top seal. With all the heavy, regular afternooon rain you wouldn't want all that soaking into the new insulation.

After you recharged with R12 what type of vent temps did you get when you were at a light? With similar heat index temps I get to around 75 on max with my Duracool/ ES I12a.

If I don;t get the results I hope for next will be a bigger engine fan. There is a post out there from a guy in AZ who ended up modding in a Duramax big fan. However he wasn't after cooling a condenser. He was just trying to keep the engine cool.

I am pretty busy right now but will try to get some pics done when I get a chance. My A6 compressor went in the spot where the number one Alt was. The number one alt moved to an outboard position alongside the number two alt on the pass side. Rear batt swapped sides to the driver side to make room for the evaporator. I also insulated the heck out of the coolant lines and drier. Amazingly that gave me the best return on investment. For $20 of insulation I got about 5 degrees cooler vent temps.

I am curious if you know. I have looked as it didn't occur when I did the install but it is too late with out taking everything out again. Do you know where the system draws its air from? I wanted to make sure that I was not drawing any engine compartment air and have not found any place where it could possible come from. But maybe I am missing something.

Also do you recall how much R12 you needed to fully charge the system? With two different fluids so far I can't get a good idea of what the total system capacity is. Dependant on year, model I have found 3 different capacities for R12.

Thanks.

 

[ODFever]

Shkira,

I leave my A/C on MAX to use as much cooled air as possible. The fresh air inlet valve is located under the grate where the wipers arms are and is right above the evaporator core/blower motor. You won’t have any problem with drawing engine compartment air into the cab.

The HR6 compressor that’s on my truck came out of an 85 Blazer. I found the manual for the civilian Blazer from Bishko Automotive on eBay. The CD is complete factory service manuals and helped out tremendously when I rebuilt my A/C system. I recommend ordering the 84 Blazer manuals for your truck as that was the last year that GM used the A6 compressor. I don’t remember how much R12 I used. I think your compressor takes around 48 oz of R12 and 8 oz of oil. The amount of R12 you need depends on whether you have the A4, HR6, or A6 compressor. The A6 is the largest and requires the most refrigerant.

I’m not sure what the vent temps are. I haven’t bought a gauge to check.

I’d be cautious modifying a fan from a Duramax. If you don’t balance it exactly, the fan blades could vibrate, break, and ruin your day.

I bought the entire gasket kit from LMC a few years ago and replaced the door gaskets and gate gasket. I can’t insulate my cab until I take the topper off and replace the side and top gaskets. Apparently the topper was cemented to the truck and has to be cut free. I attempted to take the topper off with a hydraulic jack and it seems like too big a job for me to do in my driveway. Do you know of a better way to replace the gasket? Can I seal the topper gasket at the roof line without having to replace the gasket? Could I take my CUCV to a body shop and pay them to replace it?

Thanks for the info about wrapping the drier and evaporator in insulation. Great idea! What did you use for insulation that can withstand the temps and vibration? Where did you buy the insulation?

 

[SGT LongT]

I can suggest two things for sound and thermal insulation. The first is Peel & Seal found in the roofing section in Lowes. It is just like Fatmat, but a lot cheaper. I have read forums from car restoration enthusiasts that use it instead of Fatmat, and the reviews on Lowes are all from car guys. Second is an additive to any paint and it is made here in Florida in Brevard County. The additive is ceramic micro spheres with a vacuum inside. Two or more layers of paint with the micro spheres in essence creates a vacuum barrier. Sound and heat cannot move through a vacuum so it is blocked.
HY-TECH Insulating paint and insulating house paint additive DIY insulation solutions

 

[shkira]

wrapping a/c drier and hoses

The fresh air inlet valve is located under the grate where the wipers arms are and is right above the evaporator core/blower motor. You won’t have any problem with drawing engine compartment air into the cab.
>>>Where exactly? I pulled the grate off looking for any inlet and never found any. The only thing I found were inlets on the sides for the fresh air doors. I understand that the system shouldn't draw any outside air on A/C max?

48 oz of R12 and 8 oz of oil.
>>> That was one of the numbers I found except I found 11 oz of oil; 6 in the compressor and the rest distributed thru the other components. I was hoping you would say 42 as that is all the R12 I have.

I'll consider getting the manuals but I learned alot while I have been trying to get the system cold. Thats good 'cause when I started I had never done any A/C work.

I’d be cautious modifying a fan from a Duramax.
>>>> I don;t really want to do it but temp rises of 22 degrees when I come to stop is ridiculous. I hope that I won;t get as much with the R12. The fan thing is a last resort. I will say even what I have now is a lot better than no A/C. I'm just frustrated that I invested so much time and effort and I'm only getting marginal performance. I was spoiled before with a 38 degree car! I will say that the insulation did help alot. Yesterday my wife complained that her feet got cold! That was never a problem before since the floor used to always be hot! Progress, now if I could just get it cold enough that she will shut her vents! The goal is to be able to run it at fan position 2 or 3 instead of max all the time.

I did the door gaskets, but not yet done the gate gasket. That's next. Did you change your side vent window gaskets? I bought the replacements but can't figure how to get the old ones out. Sorry no idea about the top gasket. You could try to just run a bead of silicon on the inside and outside and see how that does. I am sure if you find the right guy they could get the top off. If I were trying to get it off I would cut the gasket really deep and as I tried jacking it off I would keep working a blade around in the gap. Since the PO sealed it with cement obviously they had a problem in the past. One of the guys that did welding for me had 5 blazers. He told me that while its cool to take the top off after 4 - 5 times it would always leak after that. So I resist all urges to peel it off. I am happy since mine is water tight.

I didn't replace my vent door gaskets but I watched them operate and they seem ok. Seal pretty well, but I was just seeing the parts on the inside.

The insulation was time consuming but worth the trouble. Just go to Home Depot or Lowe's and get the right size pipe insulation. Buy the more expensive one of the two varieties they sell. Its easier to work with and has better insulation properties. It comes with self adhesive on the edges so it seals well around the compressor feed and return lines. Unfortunately, doesn't stay sealed. Take strips of black duct tape and wrap at intervals to keep it closed around the hoses. I also got smaller diameter and did the condenser return line. As far as the drier that was the harder one. It looks ghetto but works. I started with self adhesive insulating tape from HD or Lowes and taped the drier all over. When you look at the R value its small so then I went over top with batt insulation (foil lined). Use a lot of duct tape to secure it but be careful to not compress it too much. Its the air in the jacket that provides the insulation. The back and bottom of the drier are the worst to cover. Start there and then go around finishing at the top.

Tinting it tomorrow so I know that will help. Just wish I could go darker. Will be an improvement none the less.
Good luck!

 

[shkira]

Sgt LongT
I have read on the glass spheres and it sounds promising. I was just conflicted about the inhalation hazard, self mixing and how much to use. It just seemed easier to go old school and use standard insulation. I am exceptionally satisfied after I was done and worried that if I went the paint/sphere route I would end up adding insulation over top anyway,

I guess though that with as loud as the stock CUCV is on the highway any insulation is better than none!

Good tip on the peel and stick insulation. Wish I had found that before I gave LMC and JC Whitney a bunch of cash. I will end up insulating my attic with it though! If Irene doesn't remove my roof entirely!

 

[overkill375]

dang ac looks like alot of work

 

[SGT LongT]

Here is a link for the 7 blade GM fan. I like this one because it is steal and not the flex version. I have seen the plastic flex versions in HMMWV get shredded from fording or being hosed down (while engine running) in the wash racks.
GM Fan Blade 18 Inch Steel - Fan Blades, Fan Clutches, Fan Shrouds

Shkira thanks for the tips on insulating the a/c in the engine compartment. I see these tips crossing over for a cold air intake or snorkel intake to keep the air temps down.

 

[jdeoliveira74]

I can suggest two things for sound and thermal insulation. The first is Peel & Seal found in the roofing section in Lowes. It is just like Fatmat, but a lot cheaper. I have read forums from car restoration enthusiasts that use it instead of Fatmat, and the reviews on Lowes are all from car guys. Second is an additive to any paint and it is made here in Florida in Brevard County. The additive is ceramic micro spheres with a vacuum inside. Two or more layers of paint with the micro spheres in essence creates a vacuum barrier. Sound and heat cannot move through a vacuum so it is blocked.
HY-TECH Insulating paint and insulating house paint additive DIY insulation solutions

When you say peel and seal do you mean the icy weather barrier?? cause thats a great idea and readily available!