Dark Seas M1008 Project

[DarkSeas]

Got the rear driveshaft off after doing something silly (taking the 6 bolts off the rear diff). Pulled up the little bolts with the covers at the rear differential ujoint, wiggled a pry bar, driveshaft dropped down, pulled it out of the tcase.

Should have anticipated the tcase leaking thank God I had a bucket in my truck or I wouldve been cleaning a mess all night. Noticed a slow leak coming out of the back of the transfer case at the rear driveshaft... might need to figure out what seal that is and replace it before I put the driveshaft back on.

Also think I found the fabled 3 bolts to turn the IP a hair. The 3 I circled, are these the bolts holding the IP I need to loosen to turn the IP a hair? At first I was only finding two then I felt around by the throttle cable thing and found what I believe is the third.



Ignore my light on the second photo, it was really hard to see without, it's right below the throttle cable.

Victory driveshaft photo:



Next steps: ujoints and seal for tcase, in the meantime seeing if I can adjust the IP to correct the smoking/knocking issue with a timing adjustment. Next update this week or weekend, likely with a video of the smoking/knocking/timing issue.

 

[DarkSeas]

I've got some time on my hands (like a month or so). I don't plan on remaining idle with the truck.

The driveshafts are off, I've got ujoints to order next week to replace the bad ones. I still need to do some work diagnosing the motor smoking issue, I will need some help from friends with that one, it'll likely happen this weekend. Going to try a hair-sized driverside adjustment first, and taking a couple of videos for second, third, and fourth opinions before I go with the rebuild route. Might need to re-bleed the injectors, maybe there's water in the fuel, maybe I've got an injector sticking, maybe the timing is off, there are a lot of possibilities in my mind. Maybe y'all can see something I don't.

Now, some maintenance items I can get to in the meantime: my transfer case was leaking since I got it, with the driveshafts off, I am very tempted to spend $200 on a rebuild kit, $200 on a transmission jack, and pulling it for a complete rebuild. I'm pretty sure I will go this route, fix it now and make it right before I regret it later.
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I also want to check the charging circuits/lights and get some details of what I've got going on.

I think GEN1 is charging but GEN2 is AWOL. Don't remember seeing a light or voltage on the VM. With both generators being recently rebuilt, it shouldn't be the generators. To verify:

I'm going to use this thread for reference: Alternator Symptoms and Fix

GEN2 has a truck side and a generator side of things when diagnosing. Testing procedure to determine where my problems lie, if any:

1. Unplug the 2 pin connectors from the alternators.

2. Key OFF - Red wire should = 12V driver side 24V passenger side, no voltage on brown wires (reading voltage from bus bars and batteries. If voltage is lower than battery voltage, I might need to clean connections and try again.

3. Key ON - brown wire should = 12V constant driver 24V passenger. If I'm missing voltage here, there's a disconnect on the truck side. If voltage is low, I might need to clean connections.

For GEN2 troubleshooting no voltage there's a few things I can check on (See Warthog post #92 on above link): 24V fuse at bottom, bulb, relay, diode behind dash, spade terminals at firewall plug, wiring, or spade terminal at alternator. Worth noting that the bulb won't come on if the exciter plug is unplugged from the alternator.

GEN1 troubleshooting no voltage to exciter is a little bit easier (see Warthog #122 on above link). 12V battery to 12V engine bus to ignition switch (through firewall) to heater fuse. Heater fuse to instument cluster #5 to bulb back to instrument cluster #8, #8 to firewall, firewall to exciter plug on GEN1.


I really want to go and check over these circuits tonight. I should be able to button up all of this by the time I diagnose and fix that smoking issue I'm having, then she will be good to roll out. This truck will make an appearance at my wedding next October and in our invitation photos (ASAP), and I'm nothing but excited to be back on it.

 

[DarkSeas]

Okay I'm here at the garage checking on voltages with my charging system.

Battery condition

12V (rear)- 12.2V
24V (front) - 12.3V
Combined - 24.6V

1. Key off:
Red DS - 12.3V
Red PS - 24.6V

Brown DS - 0.02V
Brown PS - 0.04V

2. Key on (I've got an electric fuel pump causing some draw here):

GEN1 light came on, no GEN2 light.
Red DS - 12.0V
Red PS - 24.3V

Brown DS - 12.0V
Brown PS - 0V (this was me connecting positive to PS exciter plug Brown and negative to 12V battery negative where 24V showed before)

Conclusion: It looks like my driverside alternator is good to go. It looks like I have a truck side issue with my passenger alternator exciter circuit. It's runnable like this as long as the DS is charging my 12V battery when running I can swap batteries front to back and keep them charged. Annoying but possible to limp this way while I work on GEN2.

Next step: check 24V fuse at bottom of fuse box. Fastest fix if that isn't getting 24V. Then I will likely have to check the bulb, diode, and relay, and grounds correct?

No GEN2 light, no 24V at GEN2 Brown exciter.

 

[DarkSeas]

Update on IP situation:

I spoke with a rebuild tech named Jeff at Diesel Parts of Carolina on 421 by me (throwing the name out in case anybody else is looking for a reputable diesel pump service). A little bit of a side note, the guy said he has tons of experience with DB2 Stanadyne pumps, has all the parts on hand he would need for a rebuild, and maybe even has some military spec pumps for the 6.2/6.5 in storage. Quoted me $615-850 for a rebuild, depending on what parts it needs replaced.

The options he gave me to try before going the rebuild route:

I already have new injectors in the truck, he said he would have started there. Since that didn't help...

1. Get as much of the diesel out of the tank and put about 10gal of fresh diesel in the tank, see if that helps. The truck has been sitting around for a while, outside for a few months and inside a garage for about a year. It came to me running with diesel in it, I know the PO used to let it sit on his driveway for months (hunting truck). I added some fresh diesel to it earlier this year, but that was on top of whatever it had already in it. Anybody know the best way to get the fuel out? Just siphon it out with a hose into a fuel jug?

2. Advance the timing by turning it a timing-line length, like y'all said.

I told him I'd take some videos this weekend. How it currently is running, after a fuel 'swap', and after a timing advance adjustment. Should have a better understanding of the issue after that. I don't have work this weekend, and I can hopefully get my friends involved.

Jeff said that if the smoke is more grey-ish, he's worried it has more in depth timing issues from someone else messing with it/replacing it before. Maybe it's got the fuel turned up too high, maybe the cold advance solenoid is acting wonky. He seemed to have a very in depth knowledge of the pump operation. More updates to come.

 

[adf5565]

Can you remind us what issue you're having that makes it seem the timing is off or IP is bad?

 

[DarkSeas]

Can you remind us what issue you're having that makes it seem the timing is off or IP is bad?

Yessir, so earlier this year I got the truck rewired back to 24V with a 24V starter put back on, and we buttoned her back up (injectors replaced, glow plugs replaced, alternators were rebuilt, valve covers were painted and gaskets replaced, intake was deep cleaned and gasket replaced). Threw about 2-3 gallons of (then, spring 2023) fresh diesel in the tank, and turned the key.

We replaced the fuel filter box, bled the air out of the injector lines, tightened them down, and let her crank.

It took maybe 2-3 cycles to fire up after sitting for about 1 year and change without running (starter bolt broke, that's what started the entire project).

This truck came to me in pretty rough shape, it was shaking a good bit at idle and running rough, smoking from the tailpipes when I got her. She sat in the yard (my profile picture) and we would fire it up for 10 minutes to let it smoke out the mosquitos while we were hanging out. We assumed it was an injector issue due to the rocking and smoking, so began the project.

Current symptoms after changes:
1. Ran rough, did not want to idle. We had to keep a good amount of throttle into it to keep her alive. After a couple of minutes of throttle and trying to let her settle down to an idle, she finally idled. It sounded like a slower lope, and my friends said it had a slight knock to it. They called it a fuel knock, I've heard different opinions on the existence of a fuel knock.

2. Consistent smoke coming from the tailpipes, not like a thick cloud, more like a haze that slowly thickened up as it accumulated in the garage. Filled the garage we were in in about a minute till our eyes started watering and we realized we were getting gassed to death so we backed it out to let it sit idling with the tailpipes outside the garage. Light white, greyish. Smelled like unburnt diesel fuel. Throttle increased the smoke coming out, but it was never billowing like a thick cloud, just more smoke puffing away from both tailpipes. Assuming it was from sitting for a long time, we let her sit there and idle for about 5-10 minutes to see if the loping sound would ease up.

Both tailpipes is leading me to believe a timing issue vs. an injector, it's affecting both banks. I didn't manage to get a video last night, but by this weekend I plan on taking some videos of the current status before making adjustments (turning the pump, changing the fuel).

Editing to add:
I'm not 100% certain it's an injector pump issue. A lot of things are pointing that way, but I know I've still got plenty of stuff it could be.

Fuel issue: could be bad, old diesel, not sure what water in the fuel does to a motor but it could be that too. I have no gas cap and it was sitting outside for a few months. Could be a clogged fuel filter (brand new but it can happen). Fuel hoses might be getting air from somewhere. I've heard the return lines on the IP can clog up and screw up an IP. I have an electric fuel pump instead of the mechanical, there could be an issue with that modification.

It could be a compression issue, but it seemed to do okay enough to fire up.

IP: It could be the cold advance solenoid, someone before me could've modified the IP to dump more fuel, it could be off time and just need a kick toward the driverside to advance it a little from age.

 

[87cr250r]

I tried to reseal an injection pump and this was my result. Should've just done the throttle shaft seal.

 

[87cr250r]

Seriously, the truck started with difficulty and ran. It knocked and made unhappy noises. Maybe has some misfires. It smoked gray at all speeds.

My truck would would start after sitting overnight and die immediately when I tried to accelerate. I replaced the lift pump which made it better for 6 months. I tried to rebuild the IP, the problem I was experiencing was due to a bad throttle shaft seal. Rebuilding my should be should be possible, the adjustable assemblies lift out as groups. I must have missed a detail somewhere. I haven't been able to figure out what went wrong yet.

 

[DarkSeas]

Seriously, the truck started with difficulty and ran. It knocked and made unhappy noises. Maybe has some misfires. It smoked gray at all speeds.

My truck would start after sitting overnight and immediately when I tried to accelerate. I replaced the lift pump which made it better for 6 months. I tried to rebuild the IP, the problem I was experiencing was due to a bad throttle shaft seal. Rebuilding my should be should be possible, the adjustable assemblies lift out as groups. I must have missed a detail somewhere. I haven't been able to figure out what went wrong yet.

So you rebuilt your own IP trying to reseal it and you think you've got an issue with the throttle shaft seal of your IP causing a lot of similar issues with my truck?

Yeah if these minor adjustments don't see an improvement I'm gonna take some videos post them here and take them to the rebuild shop next week for some opinions on what's going on. If there's agreement a rebuild of the IP should be the next step then I'll get it rebuilt.

 

[87cr250r]

I had a throttle shaft seal issue that led me to attempt to rebuild my own IP. It should be possible. All of the adjustable pieces can be removed and reinstalled without changing the adjustments, or so I thought. This was a good running pump. I would not attempt to reseal a poorly running pump as it certainly needs recalibration.

 

[DarkSeas]

I had a throttle shaft seal issue that led me to attempt to rebuild my own IP. It should be possible. All of the adjustable pieces can be removed and reinstalled without changing the adjustments, or so I thought. This was a good running pump. I would not attempt to reseal a poorly running pump as it certainly needs recalibration.

Copy that.
Let me run a few tests tomorrow and catch some videos of the startup, idling, smoking, sounds, etc. and what adjustments do (IP advance, drain and fill fuel tank, etc.). I'll post some video links this weekend y'all can check out and see what you think. I wish I had the old video from the spring of it running, but when I got a new phone I lost about half my photos and videos.

Tonight I'm gonna just be fiddling around with some ujoints, cleaning up the driveshafts and yokes for new ujoints, going further with my inspection of my GEN2 exciter circuit - I've got 0V at the brown exciter wire with key on. (I'll be checking fuses, maybe getting to the bulb or relay if I can find them). I will also be charging the batteries so they're ready for a beatdown tomorrow.

Might also want to see why I get no oil light or 4x4 with key on but I get GEN1 (heater fuse seems OK). Maybe I'll even look into why I only have high beams and no low beams - the dimmer switch doesn't seem to hard to get to.

 

[DarkSeas]

Got her fired back up stock with no adjustments made yet.

Will post the video link as soon as it uploads to YouTube so y'all can hear her. Edit to mention we had to cut it short we were getting utterly murdered by smoke. We didn't get her idling but she fired up after about 3 tries since sitting bout 6 months.

I took some pictures (the haze is not my camera, it's the smoking):



I also did some things on my own, the 24V fuse had a 30A not a 10A fuse in it so I checked that. Fuse was good, replaced with a new 10 fuse. Had 24V at the fuse, relay diode and bulb are my next checks on the exciter circuit for GEN2. Cleaned up the exciter plugs and rechecked for 24V still nothing. But I did have 25V at the fuse.

I also managed to get the ujoints out for replacement and I wire brushed the yoke and driveshaft to clean up. I think I want to paint them to look nicer/show my efforts.

 

[DarkSeas]

Here's the VIDEO I promised. Check it out and tell me what you think.

We don't think it's a fuel issue we think it's an IP issue. We will try and advance the timing a hair to see if that helps.

Hope the video is enough, I had to cut filming short and cut a fan on, we were dying.

 

[87cr250r]

The 6.2 shouldn't make any smoke at all once the glow plug cycle ends. If you had a mechanical problem I would expect it to get louder as you rev the engine. It doesn't. I feel that points towards an injection pump issue.

 

[DarkSeas]

The 6.2 shouldn't make any smoke at all once the glow plug cycle ends. If you had a mechanical problem I would expect it to get louder as you rev the engine. It doesn't. I feel that points towards an injection pump issue.

I agree. I will have to go back and listen to the video myself. I took it but I was trying to get the tailpipes and motor before we got smoked out.

 

[87cr250r]

This is a 6.5 with a 6.2 IP but this is the level of smoke you should expect.

New video by 87cr250r

photos.app.goo.gl

 

[DarkSeas]

Just found the mother of all tutorials on 6.2 IP timing adjustments... 6.2/6.5 Diesel Stanadyne DB 2 Injection Pump Timing Methods from Tim's teachable moments on youtube. I've gotta go to a wedding this weekend and travel Thursday/Friday. I hope the fiance doesn't get too upset with me if I go and tinker tonight or tomorrow before we go, I'll be twitching the whole time up in NJ if I can't try these techniques before I go. This time I'll turn the fans on and back the truck up a few feet outside the garage before I fire it up.

Edit to mention that Tim's teachable moments on YT has a few videos of SS rallies in TX - should've known it was one of you beautiful people that made a guide so easy to follow.

Edit #2: Hi @Barrman !

 

[DarkSeas]

So the saga continues. I go to the shop and prep for getting the truck to idle and making IP adjustments. Pushed the truck back out of the garage, set up fans to blow the exhaust out so I can let her idle. Fire extinguisher ready. Charge the batteries to 12.7V each.

Sit down turn the key, the 12V fuel pump comes on. Nice. GEN1 light on like normal. Hit the glow plug button once. Twice. Let em get a little hot and go to crank. I have a coolant temp and low light now I have never seen in my life. Click. Nothing. Not even trying to start. GEN1 light goes out. I take the key out and go back through the normal motions... key to on, fuel pump comes on, this time no GEN1 light appears. I notice this as odd because I just saw it before. Hit glow plug button hear fuel pump change noise, okay, go to start. Click. Nothing again. So I decide to try and troubleshoot, relay not activating starter or starter not getting power?

I get to business. Check the voltage at the batteries, 25V. Check battery end of the starter cable, 25V. I try and go under the truck and check the voltage at the starter to see what's going on (I'm assuming starter relay at this moment). Then theres footsteps coming into the garage... some guy walks up in the garage and starts talking to me, so I pull myself out to greet and talk to him, he wants my buddy's number. He sees what I'm doing and asks about it, he tells me his roommate is a mechanic good with electrical stuff. Offers to give him a call. Sure why not, I was all alone anyway.

Roommate comes over and looks at the starter. I give him the rundown of the 24V system. I go turn the key for him and he says it's popping the starter out but not spinning it. Weird. He wanted to try grounding it, grabbed jumper cables and grabbed a stud on the front of the starter and clamped the frame rail. I turn the key. Gen 1 light comes back on. Turn the key and she turns over like normal. Super weird. We never had a ground directly to the starter before last weekend and it was cranking fine... except for one thing.

Some info here. The "ground strap" we made for the old broken one (motor to cab) was smoking when we were cranking it over last weekend. Only when cranking, it would spark then smoke. It would stop when you stopped cranking. With the new "ground" from starter to frame, the jumper cable hookup, the starter would crank and the ground strap ground would not smoke or spark like it did over the weekend.

It seems like I need to make a ground from starter to frame, but that doesn't make sense to me. There shouldn't be one. It should be grounded through its case to the block... block to firewall smoking, maybe the temporary ground we made to replace the strap wasn't adequate enough? And the jumper cable was thick enough to ground the starter better? Maybe the temporary fix lived its life and died over the weekend from smoking, killing the ground, making zero connection to the starter?

Why was gen1 light being weird then? I thought those circuits weren't related really... and how I got a coolant temperature (?) And low coolant light, no idea. Never seen those before in my life.

 

[adf5565]

So the saga continues. I go to the shop and prep for getting the truck to idle and making IP adjustments. Pushed the truck back out of the garage, set up fans to blow the exhaust out so I can let her idle. Fire extinguisher ready. Charge the batteries to 12.7V each.

Sit down turn the key, the 12V fuel pump comes on. Nice. GEN1 light on like normal. Hit the glow plug button once. Twice. Let em get a little hot and go to crank. I have a coolant temp and low light now I have never seen in my life. Click. Nothing. Not even trying to start. GEN1 light goes out. I take the key out and go back through the normal motions... key to on, fuel pump comes on, this time no GEN1 light appears. I notice this as odd because I just saw it before. Hit glow plug button hear fuel pump change noise, okay, go to start. Click. Nothing again. So I decide to try and troubleshoot, relay not activating starter or starter not getting power?

I get to business. Check the voltage at the batteries, 25V. Check battery end of the starter cable, 25V. I try and go under the truck and check the voltage at the starter to see what's going on (I'm assuming starter relay at this moment). Then theres footsteps coming into the garage... some guy walks up in the garage and starts talking to me, so I pull myself out to greet and talk to him, he wants my buddy's number. He sees what I'm doing and asks about it, he tells me his roommate is a mechanic good with electrical stuff. Offers to give him a call. Sure why not, I was all alone anyway.

Roommate comes over and looks at the starter. I give him the rundown of the 24V system. I go turn the key for him and he says it's popping the starter out but not spinning it. Weird. He wanted to try grounding it, grabbed jumper cables and grabbed a stud on the front of the starter and clamped the frame rail. I turn the key. Gen 1 light comes back on. Turn the key and she turns over like normal. Super weird. We never had a ground directly to the starter before last weekend and it was cranking fine... except for one thing.

Some info here. The "ground strap" we made for the old broken one (motor to cab) was smoking when we were cranking it over last weekend. Only when cranking, it would spark then smoke. It would stop when you stopped cranking. With the new "ground" from starter to frame, the jumper cable hookup, the starter would crank and the ground strap ground would not smoke or spark like it did over the weekend.

It seems like I need to make a ground from starter to frame, but that doesn't make sense to me. There shouldn't be one. It should be grounded through its case to the block... block to firewall smoking, maybe the temporary ground we made to replace the strap wasn't adequate enough? And the jumper cable was thick enough to ground the starter better? Maybe the temporary fix lived its life and died over the weekend from smoking, killing the ground, making zero connection to the starter?

Why was gen1 light being weird then? I thought those circuits weren't related really... and how I got a coolant temperature (?) And low coolant light, no idea. Never seen those before in my life.

Definitely sounds like you have a grounding issue. There should be 3 ground wires that attach to the block at that rear passenger side intake manifold bolt. One big one to the negative bar. Another to the cab I believe. And the 3rd i can’t recall exactly but it ties into the engine wiring harness.

 

[DarkSeas]

Definitely sounds like you have a grounding issue. There should be 3 ground wires that attach to the block at that rear passenger side intake manifold bolt. One big one to the negative bar. Another to the cab I believe. And the 3rd i can’t recall exactly but it ties into the engine wiring harness.
View attachment 907947View attachment 907948

Interesting. I had a tattered ground strap here I replaced (cab to intake stud). I replaced it with a 10 or 12ga wire I had in the shop leftover and we screwed it back down.

I also have a loose end from the wiring harness there I wrote a "?" For because when I attached it to the intake stud (it was lined up to only reach there), it ended up smoking and sparking like crazy. Assumed it was a ground but didnt know where it was coming from. Voltage on it showed 12 or 24V, like it was getting power to it. Might need to go back check that one ground. I don't think I have anything going to the negative bus bar. I almost wonder if that third thing was some sort of ground from the main engine harness plug?

Edit: I will look hard into the CUCV grounds from warthog. See what should be on that stud see if I can subtract what I know and see what that ??? Hot ground is supposed to be.