Dead Fuel Pump; Need help fast

[KaiserM109]

Help! I know all the issues and have intended to save my nickles up for a new Olympic pump, but I have to move my equipment starting this coming weekend.

On an M109 you have to drop the tank because of the bed, so mine is on the ground right now. I can put the bottom of the pump back together so that the hose goes to the bottom, which I would do if I was going to use an in-line pump. I know that it will run on the IP if I can get all the air out of the system somehow. Any suggestions on that point?

I really don't want to have to mount the tank and later unmount it.

I need a $50 solution (I am out of work), even if it is a working pull-out. I have very little trading stock except maybe some brake and bearing parts for an M101 trailer and an M105 trailer; Ford Bronco parts?

 

[scooter01922]

Air pressure.....just a wee bit will force fuel up the hose and out the tank, plenty well enough to bleed the filter just as if you had an intank working. Just be sure its only a little bit or pressure.

 

[doghead]

A leaf blower will pressurise the tank and get it primed. crude but effective.

 

[Speddmon]

the leaf blower is probably the best idea, since it's a lot of volume, but low pressure air.

even if you put a regulator on an air line from a compressor to the tank, you shouldn't really trust the regulator...they do fail, and could well turn your tank into a mini bomb

 

[Nonotagain]

Install a tire valve stem in the fuel cap and then use a bicycle air pump to pressurize the tank.

Crack the fuel line at the IP open and bleed the system of air, then if need be you can do the same at the injectors.

 

[KaiserM109]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I used a tire valve once to create a pressure bottle out of a 3 l. soda bottle and I was thinking about using a tire pump, actually one that was in my MKT-85 trailer. I have a couple of valves for mag wheels around; I just don't have an extra millitary fuel cap.

The truck is in a gravel storage lot, but I can reach it with AC on an extension cord. My wife has what amounts to a vacuum cleaner in a bucket that is used to inflate balloons. There is a capped off vent on top of the tank. I was thinking about connecting that vent to one of the balloon spouts and going for it. If I couple it loosely, I shouldn't build up any serious pressure.

The solution I would really like is a cheap replacement for the pump. Wouldn't we all!

 

[scooter01922]

Ductape is a great safety press release, won't hold too much before it comes off.

 

[doghead]

You have seen the in-line fuel pump, that OD Iron has, haven't you? No need to remove the old pump, just cut and splice it in.

 

[KaiserM109]

You have seen the in-line fuel pump, that OD Iron has, haven't you? No need to remove the old pump, just cut and splice it in.

I have and I just looked again. It is $83. I'm not sure how well a suction pump can pull fuel up from the tank at high altitude. I plan to be using this truck in places over 11,000 feet.

I have an inline pump to assist the regular pump on a Jeep pickup, but it mount lower than the tank so that it doesn't have to lift the fuel before it pushes it to the engine.

I would rather apply the $83 toward the $225 for a new in-tank pump. I figured I could afford $50 for a short term solution, and I consider a pull-out pump short term because of the reliability factor.

I think I will bite the bullet right now and put the tank back up and apply some of the above suggestions to get the IP primed.

Thanks all,

 

[pilot]

fuel pump

A company I deal with called aircraft spruce has 24 volt fuel pumps ranging from $42.60 to (gasp) $744.00. Facet#40164,npt fitting($42.60) or Facet #40154,37 degree fitting ($44.10). I have had good luck with the company and the Facet fuel pumps. Call if you need more info.

Greg Blanchfield Devils Lake, North Dakota 701-393-4384 gcb@gondtc.com

 

[KaiserM109]

Keep in mind. Your truck has 3 pumps on it. The intank pump, the engine transfer pump, and lastly the IP itself. The intank does nothing but keep the fuel system primed.

NAPA# p4603hd is the exact same pump that is in the tank. Only it is mounted externally. Being able to "lift" is not an issue. Costs $60 at my NAPA. You mount it basically the same as OD iron's pump. Only this one is cheaper and is the same thing you already have.

RE 3 pumps, I guess I need to read the TM again. I can only find the in-tank pump and the IP. I have traced the fuel lines and found the line goes to a filter on the frame on the right side near the front; then it goes to the 2 filters on the left side, rear of the engine; then it goes to the FDC on the Injection Pump. My FDC is not bypassed. What did I miss? This is a ’66 Kaiser Jeep M109A3 WITHOUT turbo and with a single tank on the right side just behind the cab and under the front corner of the box.

Just to clarify a point, there are 2 ways that a pump doesn’t have to suck fuel up out of the tank:
1) If the pump is physically in the tank below the top of the fuel all it has to do is provide positive pressure up and out of the tank.

2) If the pump is located somewhere outside the tank but below the top of the fuel, it can siphon fuel from the tank to the pump and then provide positive pressure to send it up to the engine. The catch with this is that to get the siphon started the pump still has to suck it as high as the highest point in the line between the tank and the pump. It would be a pretty weak pump not to be able to do that as long as the highest point isn’t more than a few inches above the tank. Also that would not be an issue if it got primed at a low altitude.

I have had trouble with Jeeps at very high altitudes, 11,000 ft. When going uphill the mechanical diaphragm pump has to suck fuel from the tank that is significantly lower than the engine. My long wheelbase Jeep J20 would stall on a long, steep climb. I added an inline pump on the frame below the level of the tank. Once primed, it works fine. With the deuce there is no point below the level of the tank that I could mount the pump, unless I do something really funky.

My plan, at the moment, is to buy a Carter P4603HD (as your post suggests) from NAPA here for $75.99 and mount it on the frame somewhere near the tank. I haven’t crawled under it yet to pick the spot. I also haven’t gone through the couches yet to find enough change to make up the difference. First I am going to get the tank back in its rack with a hose bypassing the old pump; maybe I can put off the expenditure a while.

If I can get more info on the Facet pumps, I might go that way.

Thanks for the information about the P4603HD pump. I was looking for one exactly like that, but couldn’t find it.

To everybody responding: Thanks, I really love this site.

Arlyn

PS Since he helped me drop the tank, my 2 yr. old grandson has offered to help me "fiss da big twuck".

 

[KaiserM109]

Does anyone else see the contradiction in this?

Here's a clue, look at the last sentence in the 2nd paragraph.

 

[Nonotagain]

Does anyone else see the contradiction in this?

Here's a clue, look at the last sentence in the 2nd paragraph.

If you are making reference to "not for fuel injection" I believe they are referring to the new fuel injection systems that require 60+ lbs of fuel pressure to the injector pump at all times.

You would only be using the pump as a lift pump.

 

[Speddmon]

I see the contradiction, but I think they are referring to gas fuel injection...they use the pressure created by the fuel pump to create the "spray". That's why the fuel pump in your gas cars produce something in the neighborhood of 60 to 80 PSI while pumping...the one you have shown only produces 10 to 14 PSI. The diesels need considerably more pressure at the injector for various reasons and that's why the have an injector pump to boost the pressure enough to "spray" onto the cylinder. Make any sense???

 

[KaiserM109]

Thanks Nonotagain and Speddmon. That does make sense. All the engines I regularly work on gasp and wheeze through a carberator. I do, however, remember checking the pressure on the fuel line on a Dodge minivan and replacing an in-tank pump, now that you mention it.

Kind of a note to close out this thread, I am going to put the truck back together without the in-tank pump and with a hose extending to where the pump used to be. I will then get the lines primed using some good advice at the top of this thread and use the truck locally. If that doesn't work, I will probably put a Carter P4603HD on it. What I want to do long term is put a new in-tank pump from Olympic ( https://www.steelsoldiers.com/threa...new-in-tank-fuel-pumps-and-parts.24987/page-2)

Thanks to everybody that contributed.

Arlyn

 

[KaiserM109]

Closing out this thread was a little premature.

A leaf blower will pressurise the tank and get it primed. crude but effective.

Has anyone actually done this? I have made 2 attempts to priming the fuel filters and the lines to them.

Keep in mind. Your truck has 3 pumps on it. The intank pump, the engine transfer pump, and lastly the IP itself. …

First I looked through TM 9-2320-361-10 OPERATOR’S MANUAL FOR 1-1/2-TON, 6X6, M44A2 SERIES TRUCKS (MULTIFUEL) and TM 9-2910-226-34 MAINTENANCE MANUAL … FOR PUMP, FUEL, METERING AND DISTRIBUTYING … . I did not find a 3rd pump.

Next I traced out all the lined going in/out of the tank. There are 3:
1. One going from the in-tank pump to the first filter on the right side of the truck. From there the line goes to the pump on the side of the IP.
2. One going to what I believe is the crankcase ventilator tube (puke tube). This one is small coming out of the tank and increases in size.
3. One going to the secondary and final filters that I believe is a overflow return.

First I pumped up an air pig, 2 gal. by my estimation, to 125 psi. I opened the relief valve at the TOP of the secondary and final filter assembly. I disconnected the line going to the puke tube and used it to pressurize the system from the air pig. I actually got fuel bubbling out of the filters, but lots more air than fuel (to be expected). I bubbled it a while and then tried to start the engine, no go. I bubbled more air, same out, tried again, no go. After a third attempt I ran out of air and ran the batteries down, so I pulled the batteries out and took them home for recharging. I’m jealous of you guys who have your deuce in your backyard.

Next day I got the best vacuum I own and tried pressurizing the tank that way. I tried it with the overflow hooked up. I got lots of air, a few bubbles, but no stream of fuel. I decided that the air was getting there via the overflow, so I disconnected it and plugged the fitting on the tank. It still didn’t work.

From my experience working on medical respiratory equipment, I am estimating that the vacuum is pressurizing the tank to 3 or 4 psi, at the most. A rough estimate made using the weight of fuel and the height I need to raise it to the filters tells me that I need at least 5 psi, and probably 5 to 8.

I doubt that a leaf blower has anymore power than my shop vacuum and most likely has less. Could my problems be partially related to our altitude? I live at 5400 ft.

I believe that if I had a little more capable helper, I might get it done by trying a combination of the 2, pumping up the tank with the vacuum and then boosting the pressure with the air pig, but this is a 1 man show.

I need help quick, otherwise I’m going to spend the money for the power bill on a new Carter in-line pump.

PS The problem with working with child labor is that they have a strong labor union; just when you are getting something done they have to go and take a nap.

 

[doghead]

Since you seem desperate and have no cash, why not start it on ether, until it gets primed. One can costs less than $5.

Have you ever tried blowing leaves with a vacuum cleaner, I don't think there's much comparison. Try a leaf blower, if you have one available.

 

[KaiserM109]

Since you seem desperate and have no cash, why not start it on ether, until it gets primed. One can costs less than $5.

Have you ever tried blowing leaves with a vacuum cleaner, I don't think there's much comparison. Try a leaf blower, if you have one available.

Looking back I don't think that the in-tank pump was working when I picked it up at Ft. Riley, KS in Aug. 07. I drove it basically straight to the storage yard with only a side trip to the house. On the trip home I felt that it didn't have the power I remembered an M109 having and on some hills it would falter. It turned out to NOT have turbo and I think the faltering was probably from an insufficient fuel supply.

While doing the paperwork on its storage it ran out of fuel in the driveway at the storage yard. We put 5 gal. in the tank and cranked, cranked, opened the valve at the top of the secondary filters, got air and it finaly started.

Prior to this it started almost instantl. Since then it has always cranked for several seconds before chugging and then starting.

I already spent $30 with an SS member on a "repair kit" that turned out to be for a pre-1954 fuel pump that was much smaller. I don't have a leaf blower; I've heard horror stories about what ether does to an engine and right now I'm a 1-man-show. We used ether regularly when I was in the reserves in Boulder, CO and it made our warrent officer cringe.

I have an in-line pump on a Jeep truck that is in pieces right behind the deuce, but I would have to spend $$ adapting the fuel lines and I doubt that it would have the volume or pressure for the deuce. I hate doing things half-axxed, so I'm going to bite the bullet. NAPA has a Carter P4603HD in stock for $75.99. The best solution would be an Olympic in-tank for $225 but the Carter will work well enough. I was looking under the deuce today and I will try to mount it as low as possible.

Thanks for the reply.

Arlyn

 

[doghead]

How much fuel is in the tank, now?

 

[Nonotagain]

With a little shade tree mechanical work, you could mount a small fuel tank on the front fender and attach a rubber line from the tank to the injector pump. That way gravity would be you friend instead of you enemy.

Cost next to nothing if you have a 5 gallon Jerry can or old lawn mower gas can laying around..