Flip the PTO?

[Unforgiven]

Is it possible to flip a single-output PTO shaft going to the winch to face rearward for a PTO hydraulic pump?

I am aware of the dual output PTO's but I can't find one for a reasonable price.

A future tranny swap that I really want to do will probably force me to use a hydraulic winch up front. But I would already have most of the plumbing done w/ a hydraulic pump already set up in the rear.

Can I disassemble the PTO & switch the front/rear cover&output? Can I simply rotate it 180 degrees on the tranny? Right now I don't foresee need for the winch, but do need a PTO hydraulic setup. So if I lose winch ability for a year or so I don't care.

 

[XM 2742]

Someone on here can tell you how. I am going to do the same thing and the guy selling me the gear box told me to just turn the shaft around in the existing box. I'm sure there is more to it than that . My question is whatis the RPM of the pto shaft? So.two of us are awaiting a reply from an "expert".

 

[mudguppy]

2/3rd's engine rpm in low gear, 1.5x engine rpm in high gear.

 

[tm america]

wow didnt realize they were overdrivin that much.good to know shouldnt be hard to find a pump made to run at those speeds

 

[MikeON]

Here is a thread with PTO rpms:


http://www.steelsoldiers.com/deuce-modification-hot-rodding/22143-winch-driveshaft-speed.html

 

[73m819]

Is it possible to flip a single-output PTO shaft going to the winch to face rearward for a PTO hydraulic pump?

still the question is CAN THIS BE DONE, can the pto be rebuilt with the output shaft faceing the rear or is a rear facing pto needed

 

[gringeltaube]

Is it possible to flip a single-output PTO shaft going to the winch to face rearward for a PTO hydraulic pump?

still the question is CAN THIS BE DONE, can the pto be rebuilt with the output shaft faceing the rear or is a rear facing pto needed

.... and the answer is...... YES! (and NO!)

It can and has been done by retaining the original housing and reusing ALL gears, bearings and small parts but ... you need to flip both shafts (output AND reverse gear) and therefore it is best to swap them out with the ones from a 5ton PTO.
There is no way to install the stock 2.5ton output shaft, facing to the rear if it was for a Deuce. But on the other hand you can use that part to convert a 5ton PTO to power a rear mounted winch, for example...

Regarding reverse gear shaft, actually the only difference between the 2.5 and the 5ton version is their location or distance - pin hole to splined end. I have found some shafts already double-perforated (for dual application, obviously.) With a hard-metal drill bit it is possible to re-drill the original shaft, if you needed to re-use the stock one.

A little warning to keep in mind: hooked up to the output shaft, regardless if flipped or stock, it would allow a pump to turn backwards ! ....most of them don't like that kind of abuse!

Attached are some pics for comparison of the two shafts in question.
Hope it helps!

G.

 

[tm america]

why not keep the pto for your winch and then run a belt driven hydraulic pump off the engine like the tow trucks do they seem to work pretty good and it would save you having to mess with the pto since you will have to buy a pump either way shoot you could probably sell your pto and buy the belt drivin pump with the money then run your winch off the hydro to

 

[rosco]

I have chanced several PTO's output direction. I have not done the deuce, but if you look at those cases, on most PTO's, all you have to do is swap directions with the shafts and related internals. Its like the Garwood winch - they will change from front to rear, left or right. It just depends how you assemble it. A PTO hydraulic system, is far better then belt drive, having the capacity for higher volume and energy transmission. If you install a flow diverter in the hydraulic system, you will be able to control the speed of the system.

Lee in Alaska

 

[tm america]

i know a pto hydro is less problems .but they do use the belt drivin pumps all the time on tow trucks with very high gpm and 2500-3000psi without any problems.they run the winches and rollback beds with those type of pump .from looking at the pics i would think you could switch them.but i have never tried .and the other question is by switching it would you loose the ability to have two speeds in the direction the pump needs to turn ?if so you would be stuck in low for pump use

 

[rmgill]

You could try to find the double output PTO. That has the rear facing drive which only turns one direction.

 

[Unforgiven]

A little warning to keep in mind: hooked up to the output shaft, regardless if flipped or stock, it would allow a pump to turn backwards ! ....most of them don't like that kind of abuse!

G.

Luckily the used LowBoy sytem I'm getting doesn't care which way it turns. At least that's what the installation manual says. Now, if the previous owner changed pumps then I guess I'll have to get a different pump.

I appreciate the pictures. But honestly I'm a bit of a 'tard until I actually get my hands greasy. To simply flip the existing PTO from front to rear I can simply use all the same parts right? Technically, I don't have to use a 5 Ton system? I'm trying to avoid ordering more parts if possible.

So are you saying to take it apart & make it point backwards I'll have to drill a different hole in the shaft? Then it will work?

When you say there is no way to install the stock 2.5ton output shaft, facing to the rear if it was for a Deuce is that because it's too short?

 

[Unforgiven]

You could try to find the double output PTO. That has the rear facing drive which only turns one direction.

If I could find one for a reasonable price I would. In a few years when I do a transmission swap the stock PTO is useless. So I'm trying to minimize my expense for a rear facing PTO.

 

[cbvet]

Marti, M543A2 here on SS once mentioned adding a chain sprocket to his standard PTO to run a pump.
I would think that would be a simple solution.

 

[73m819]

Originally Posted by 73m819
"A little warning to keep in mind: hooked up to the output shaft, regardless if flipped or stock, it would allow a pump to turn backwards ! ....most of them don't like that kind of abuse!"
i believe a few posts got mixed up, most HYD.PUMPS can be set up to run in eather direction, just a matter of taking it apert and fliping tthings 180`

 

[gringeltaube]

................................. To simply flip the existing PTO from front to rear I can simply use all the same parts right? Technically, I don't have to use a 5 Ton system?

I say it again: YES, ALL parts.... but NOT the two mentioned shafts.
For those you'll need to find a 5ton donor PTO. (there should be some around with broken cases - thanks to Xtra-strong shear pins.....!)
Or, do it the other way around: buy a good 5ton PTO and just swap all the gears from a 2.5ton model.

So are you saying to take it apart & make it point backwards I'll have to drill a different hole in the shaft? Then it will work?

YES, but that's only for the reverse shaft. (first pic.)
I woudn't mess with it to much since most likely you will have the correct 5ton shaft anyways as a bonus after getting the 5ton output shaft.

When you say there is no way to install the stock 2.5ton output shaft, facing to the rear if it was for a Deuce is that because it's too short?

Not only.... you need the bearing surface w/oil passage for the gear on the correct side, that is facing to the rear! (2nd. pic.)

Attached 3rd. is my diagram (again) showing direction of turning and rpm for both trannys and both PTO shafts involved, with engine at 1000rpm (clutch engaged!): It really doesn't matter if shafts are flipped or not...

For the ones saying that these can be flipped by simply swapping direction of ALL internal parts (without the extra 5ton shafts, in our case) please show us the trick. I'm always open to good suggestions and wanting to learn much more here!


Do I really have to assemble one completely, reversed...... for more pics????

G.

 

[tedstrucks]

I sell new rear facing accessory drives that bolt right on you existing PTO. CALL or EMAIL (no PMs) me for information.

 

[m16ty]

I say it again: YES, ALL parts.... but NOT the two mentioned shafts.
For those you'll need to find a 5ton donor PTO. (there should be some around with broken cases - thanks to Xtra-strong shear pins.....!)
Or, do it the other way around: buy a good 5ton PTO and just swap all the gears from a 2.5ton model.

YES, but that's only for the reverse shaft. (first pic.)
I woudn't mess with it to much since most likely you will have the correct 5ton shaft anyways as a bonus after getting the 5ton output shaft.

Not only.... you need the bearing surface w/oil passage for the gear on the correct side, that is facing to the rear! (2nd. pic.)

Attached 3rd. is my diagram (again) showing direction of turning and rpm for both trannys and both PTO shafts involved, with engine at 1000rpm (clutch engaged!): It really doesn't matter if shafts are flipped or not...

For the ones saying that these can be flipped by simply swapping direction of ALL internal parts (without the extra 5ton shafts, in our case) please show us the trick. I'm always open to good suggestions and wanting to learn much more here!


Do I really have to assemble one completely, reversed...... for more pics????

G.

Gerhard, I'd like to pick your brain on this subject.

I'm installing a dump on a M35A2 for my uncle. I've got the PTO disassembled. I've been looking at all the parts and think I may have come up with a way to flip the output. What I've came up with is taking the output shaft and turning it around so it comes out the rear. Of course, the stationary gear won't line up and the sliding gear won't ever make it to the reverse position but I figure that won't matter bacause it looks as if the sliding grear will still engage center gear (one speed will be fine for a hyd pump).

It accually looks as if I'll have to remove the reverse shaft altogether because 1) I'll need to plug the hole where the accersory drive output sticks out , 2) the gears off of the output shaft won't line up anyway, and 3) it's really not needed for a single speed.

Even if all this works out I'm not out of the woods yet. It looks as if I may have clearance issues with the master cylinder because the of the output comming off of the upper shaft?

What am I missing here? I'm sure I'm missing something and you've probably already expained it but I'm not understanding.

 

[gringeltaube]

Yes, that is a way, of course, if all you want is just one speed or N, in this case it would be LOW, that is 2/3rds of engine speed and same direction of rotation. Also, plugging that reverse shaft hole with the already existant closed-end bearing wouldn't be a problem, either.

Question is: is this all practical? The problem with that (upper) rear output is in fact maintaining sufficient clearance of all moving parts to the brake pedal support and linkage. Also, the drive shaft U-joints would have to work at a considerable angle to clear the crossmember...
Have you considered mounting the pump to the front of the transmission, attached to the frame, above the front axle? Definitely much more room there....! I have even seen a M35 with a pump and reservoir mounted behind the bumper and using most of the stock winch driveshaft parts, including the stock PTO!
Just throwing in some ideas....

G.

 

[m16ty]

Yes, I have to agree that preliminary masurements show that there may be clearance issues with the brake componets.

I've also thought about a front mounted pump. The clearance is pretty tight for something as big as a pump until you get to the front bumper though.

It was just one of my "hair brained" ideas and I was throwing it out there to see what people (mainly Gerhard) thought.