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Frying Alternators

74M35A2

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Livonia, MI
Thread from the dead! This one over 2 years old. Awesome.

Ron, pull up a chair and tell us what you have, where it is made, what the ratings are, your warranty, and price? The $100 Chinese Delco clones are a hard act to beat, and available in 12v or 24v. For $200, one can have both on their truck, with 1 year warranty.
 

DOUBLE ALT

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Alternators in General

Thread from the dead! This one over 2 years old. Awesome.

Ron, pull up a chair and tell us what you have, where it is made, what the ratings are, your warranty, and price? The $100 Chinese Delco clones are a hard act to beat, and available in 12v or 24v. For $200, one can have both on their truck, with 1 year warranty.
To all;
The alternator world has not changed much since 1963 when alternators took over the auto industry. Many things in the industry however, have changed. The need for more power/watts available, multiple and larger batteries, engines allowed to run hotter, longer life/miles from the vehicle, and a few more less important things.
Starting soon we will be an established vendor on steelsoldiers. What will be addressed, is new design of alternators, better materials, better cooling, clean air through the alternator, better mounting, more control of the alternator by the regulator, and other improvements. We hold two Patents on Alternators and together they make a difference in the performance and durability.
You will be given a website to view some of the changes that should have been made years ago.
One change made a few years ago, including GM, is the alternator voltage is controlled by the Computer, to 1st run at higher voltage like 14.8 volts, for a period of time and then allowed to drop to about 13.6 volts to save fuel. More details to follow.
I look forward to helping solve your electrical issues. If the automobile industry can warrant to say 100,000 miles or 5 years, why not new alternators on Military Vehicles. We will address 14-28 V and other combinations including, "TRUE" Dual Voltage alternators. I will ask for some help like a wiring diagram and the different mounting styles out there.
Regards Double Alt
 

74M35A2

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Latest tech in mass production automotive alternators is using square wire with hairpin wound stators starting with the Denso SC II series in 2002/3, now +250 amp output for 12v automotive, PWM or LIN bus control, alternator load % feedback, soft start, clutch pulley or de-coupler pulley, and brushless for heavy duty truck targeting 1 million mile life expectancy. The additional load of electric power steering pushed alternator capacity up over the 200 amp threshold quickly, as EPS draws 100 amps at every tug of the steering wheel.

The majority of old MV alternator mounts are of the rare European bus type, an extended hinge side foot version of J-180. The stock alternators use an external battery voltage reference, which when disconnected via improper dah switch shut-down, there is no failsafe and the alternator goes full-tilt. Most modern alts, including the Chinese clones, are now self contained and have rectified this issue. Second fallacy of the stock MV alternator found here is the high idle output, combined with insufficient cooling. A lot of members here will run batteries well over 5 years old, so it constantly taxes the alternator as the batteries never fully recover and are always drawing on it. With 4 batteries, the truck will still start well, but the old batteries will still drown the alt, and eventually kill it. If batteries are kept 5 years old or less, this is not really an issue.

Modern heavy duty truck alternators operate on anywhere from 1 to 5 wires, most to back-date for historical systems, and have their own charge system set point reference if voltage is not present on the battery sense terminal. R being AC since wave output for historical tachometers and engine running detection (prevent starter re-engagement to already running engine), I being alternator failure dash warning lamp, and S being remote battery sense.

Leece NeVille and Bosch alt divisions have both been sold to a Chinese washing machine motor maker. Remy has ceased all activity into alternator/starter development as they moved those resources to focus on electric vehicle traction motor development, and currently have a recall of over 40,000 heavy duty starters they are tackling.

We look forward to what you can bring to the table. There will be a market for you here if you can offer simultaneous dual voltage output for a reasonable price (not selectable between the two). The majority of the vehicles here do not have any type of ECU/ECM, nor do most owners want to be adding one, if that helps you at all.

AEC76D8E-76DF-431F-9F00-B5D06FD95463.jpg
 
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DOUBLE ALT

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Yes we know all that. We can get into those details but the average mechanic, would still be lost. Our approach is using more common parts to keep the cost of parts for new, and repair reasonable. Our Patented double alts are only dual voltage and dual amperage with one voltage not affecting the other. The basic would be 70 amps at 27.4 volts with 145 amps at 14.2 volts.

This would cover 90% of the Civilian use of the vehicle needing TRUE dual voltage.
I would like to know more about the use of the epoxy/plastic used on the Neihoff.
I do not believe their is a alternator today that can make it to 400,000 miles. Even UPS changes theirs at 225,000 to be on the safe side and only one or two years old. Engines 1 million miles, yes.
Regards Double Alt
 

74M35A2

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Livonia, MI
Sounds great. We look forward to your offerings. Folks here are very budget minded on a personal finance level, hence the reason we buy government discards.

Sorry, I don't have any knowledge of Neihoff products, my exposure is only with high volume mass production components, mainly for US on-road market.
 
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mechanicjim

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Chicago il
C.E.Niehoff uses "AC or P or R" as AC output from regulator and "D+" as the charge light output generally and "IGN or E" for Ignition excite signal. for remote sense they use custom harness to plug on regulator
 

74M35A2

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Livonia, MI
Here is some pricing, from a nearly same written article, but different location. I believe Wolverine has been a member here for a long while with positive feedback and a good reputation. Looks like in excess of $1200.

http://www.wolverinetechnologiesllc.com/DualVoltageAlternator.html

Appears to be two alternator stators stacked atop each other on a common rotor shaft using a single case with long through bolts. Unsure how cooling of the front most unit is effective as it draws hot air from across the rear one. Extend the rotor shaft out the back, put a fan on each end, vent the stator joining collar, and it should have adequate cooling for both sections at full rated simultaneous output.
 
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74M35A2

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Livonia, MI
While I think most people here are going to pass on $1,200 for 2 old technology Delco clones mushed together with inadequate cooling, here is an example shot of yesterday vs today alternator technology. This is the stator from a 250 amp 12v automotive alternator. Uses square wire so no air gap. Hairpin welding/winding increases efficiency and lowers audible whine. This unit is rated at 250 hot, she’ll throw nearly 300 amps under ambient condition.

C47946AD-A56E-4BB5-86B8-3C0618F5AAAD.jpg
 

DOUBLE ALT

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Loris SC
Square/rectangle wire/wiring has been around for 40 plus years. It is not necessary in most cases for Heavy Duty usage. Like many products, you pay extra. Using either type of Stator and Rotor combination, brushes or brushless the unit must be able to cool. That is why we got Patent 9793779 that directs the air through the alternator in a specified manor. It makes no sense to use under hood heated air of 187 degrees F or more. That is also why we advise using our Remote Air Filter Kit that uses outside ambient temperature. It cleans cool air. 11-8-17 double alt kit picture.jpg double-alt.com for more info. Merry Christmas
 

74M35A2

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I don’t mean to be such a Negative Nancy. I think the idea is simplistically great, and we should always encourage innovation. The market will decide the price point, as with anything in life. I hope it takes off for you.
 

DOUBLE ALT

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From that information I know for sure you have too many things electrical going on. 60 amp is not even close.
When you 1st start the engine the alternator will be at full output trying to refill the watts that you used since it was running. The alternator has to also maintain the watts that you are using to keep the engine, trans, fans, lights, gauges, anything that is on. A 100 amp gauge in line to/from the alternator will tell the story.
The best would be a replacement alt both 14 and 28 volt output. This would eliminate inverter/equalizer and isolator.
Whenever you use a electrical conversion 14 to 24, 24 to 12 you loose amps and create heat. Can be 15 to 30% loss.
You then need to have only a 12 volt bank of batteries and a 24 volt bank. For more info email ron@double-alt.com
 

porkysplace

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mid- michigan
From that information I know for sure you have too many things electrical going on. 60 amp is not even close.
When you 1st start the engine the alternator will be at full output trying to refill the watts that you used since it was running. The alternator has to also maintain the watts that you are using to keep the engine, trans, fans, lights, gauges, anything that is on. A 100 amp gauge in line to/from the alternator will tell the story.
The best would be a replacement alt both 14 and 28 volt output. This would eliminate inverter/equalizer and isolator.
Whenever you use a electrical conversion 14 to 24, 24 to 12 you loose amps and create heat. Can be 15 to 30% loss.
You then need to have only a 12 volt bank of batteries and a 24 volt bank. For more info email ron@double-alt.com
So when are you going to post up some of your products and prices in the Vendors forum ?
 

big block 88

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Topeka/Kansas
Im seeing a lot of gum smacking here but still no pricing... it's interesting looking but my 5tons dont see anywhere newr 187 under hood temps. Even pulling on a hot summer day in the flint hills 150 is the hottest ive ever seen. I dont run inner fenders either so perhaps that makes me cooler under the hood.
 

DOUBLE ALT

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Loris SC
In regards to under hood temperature. I have personally measured my 2013 Chev Silverado pickup. At the alternator which is on top front of the engine 187f degrees, in July here in SC with the AC on.. Your open fender trucks probably are cooler but how about a Limo- Police Car- Taxi - SUV and many others with tight quarters. They are over 200 f for sure. Many alternators are in a good location, and many are near or over the exhaust manifolds. I was speaking in a general sense. The industry is serious about raising engine temperature higher again. That means of course, higher under hood temperatures. Higher temperatures, less pollution -cleaner burning, and better mileage. You mention pricing, $395 for a new 70 amp 24 volt J mounting alternator. Same for a 145 amp 12 volt. $495 Special includes the Air Filter Kit as seen on the web. No core charge. Pad mounting available.
Special $1495 for all new TRUE Dual voltage 12 v 145 amp and 24 volt 70 amp. Patent 7291933,9793779. 100 % new parts. Core charge for dual voltage if not received in 30 days. Shipping extra. 2 year warranty with filter kit.
more info ron@double-alt.com competitor Military alt and then our alt with filter. Notice bearing with rust and dirt in competitor.
Competitor rusted no filter.jpg4-28-17 pic dual alt with filter 2 crop.jpg www.double-alt.com
 
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