how many yards can a SEE FLU 419 move in a day?

[thingamadigger]

I was asked by a neighbor to bid on a rather large excavating job. Hard clay soils, moving 100's of yards of dirt a 250 yard distance and backblading the fill. A large excavating firm bid on the project with their largest excavator, a full size dumptruck, and a bulldozer at the other end, three operators and millions in equipment, plus drop off and pick up at the site from semi's something like one or two days work for them in total. The question is can a SEE compete? I would be happy clearing anything over $50/hr, and doing what they could accomplish in a day, in a week(or two?) on the SEE. A dump trailer may also be in the cards as I have found one for sale local in the woods nearby. Would I have to have a few loads dug up and ready to go each time, before folding the backhoe to tow the trailer with the pintle, and then fill the trailer with the front bucket from piles; or place the trailer so that the digger bucket could load it directly, but have to do a fold each time it was full?. How many yards can I move realistically in a 8-10 hr day? What is the most efficient way?

 

[m1010plowboy]

Excavators Load Cycles

Excavators Load Cycles

www.methvin.org

Production rates for the FLU must be in a spec somewhere. The attached chart might give you some ideas but ........no good deed goes unpunished.....using small equipment on a big job.......weather depending.....could go great, or not. Is the FLU up to the job @ 10m3 / hr(example) 500m3, 50hrs excavation, 20m3 / hr hauling....3 days......one day of leveling......why not. Compaction requirements on the far end should dictate lift size and type of equipment. If it's just a landscape area then knocking loads over with a tractor was enough in the old days.

We were excavating 20m3 / hr with the s570 Bobcat in a clay/sand mix but I hit 40 cubes at peak so now I have something to aim for. The hoe/trench charts give up more data and bucket sizes so the FLU bucket may measure up to one of these. https://www.methvin.org/construction-production-rates/excavation/trench-excavation

Set up some video cameras and get at it!

 

[m1010plowboy]

I get to drive a brand new Cat and International MV. We do a little scaping so it's always easy when the big, new toys are doing the job. We farm with a 1950 Ferguson tractor so I'd jump on a FLU for a week to give it a try.

 

[porkysplace]

With a dump trailer you will be there a month

 

[peakbagger]

FYI, While moving some crushed gravel around and in the past I have discovered that at least with my SEE, the bucket can bite off more than the hydraulics can lift. Thus the volume of the bucket is not the limiting capacity of my SEE. There have been past posts regarding the mismatch of the loader hydraulics pressure and the pump which imply that the pump has more pressure capacity than the loader but that would require replacing hoses with higher rated hoses and hoping that other components in the system are not right on the edge,. If the material is wood chips or full of air maybe the bucket can be filled but with a dense material like gravel or hardpan, plan on reduced volume capacity in your calculations. I managed to snap a fitting fairly soon after an attempt at repeatedly trying to lift over capacity. It may have been coincidence but definitely suspicious.

 

[Karl kostman]

My only words of caution are BE VERY CAREFUL JUST HOW BIG A BITE OF THIS SANDWICH YOU TAKE!!!!!! If there are time limits on the job be careful! Are you trying to do this job just to undercut the guy millions of $$$ worth of equipment? The FLU 419 is not without it drawbacks and short comings remember what SEE stands for!

 

[Pinsandpitons]

A few things;
First, don’t fold the Backhoe every time. Just raise it up to lock position turn it a little to the left and go on.
Second, The hydraulic pump for the loader and auxiliary tools is a joke. Totally capable for pressure, just very limited on volume.I adjusted the pressure relief for my loader and I can lift the front off the ground easily and scoop and carry a full bucket of gravel. I think that’s the Common problem with SEE. The pressure is set way too low, all the other components are more than capable of 2900 psi. But the spec is for something like 1900.
third, if it was me and I had access to a dump trailer, I would use it but I wouldn’t be towing it with the pintle Just grab it with the bucket and some chains and pull it around that way. Or better yet weld on a receiver hitch to the bucket and use that.
as long as there’s no time limit for this project on either end you should do fine. But it will take you longer than with a piece of yellow iron.

 

[thingamadigger]

Great answers ALL! My history with time estimates for something I have never done before is too long a story for this forum. Double it and add a few has been an old saying that definitely applies. As for efficiency of operation, I am definitely in agreement that folding the hoe back up each time is a no-go. Thoughts and discussions have led to the above from Pinsandpitons, pull the trailer backwards with the bucket, and even a side trailer hitch concept that would allow the trailer to be loaded directly while attached to the machine off to the side and rear, and then pulled to the dump location without any disconnecting, or connecting things like hydraulics, hitches, etc. each time or folding the hoe.

 

[porkysplace]

Great answers ALL! My history with time estimates for something I have never done before is too long a story for this forum. Double it and add a few has been an old saying that definitely applies. As for efficiency of operation, I am definitely in agreement that folding the hoe back up each time is a no-go. Thoughts and discussions have led to the above from Pinsandpitons, pull the trailer backwards with the bucket, and even a side trailer hitch concept that would allow the trailer to be loaded directly while attached to the machine off to the side and rear, and then pulled to the dump location without any disconnecting, or connecting things like hydraulics, hitches, etc. each time or folding the hoe.

The only way to get any production with a small machine is to keep it digging . If you stop to drag the trailer with the FLU your going to move about 3 loads a hour , then if you have to level them as you go cut that in half .

 

[The FLU farm]

I hope it would pay enough to replace the worn out SEE once the job is completed.
But I'd like to observe for a while...especially if attempting to pull a loaded dump trailer with the bucket. Unless it's dinky trailer.

 

[thingamadigger]

I seem to be gravitating towards a swinging drawbar for hauling the trailer. In tractors it is well known that drawbars are mounted so as not to pull the tractor apart, and it seems M/B puts drawbar loads directly onto the frames on newer Mogs, avoiding "pulling" on the axles. I found some pics on Benzworld of 3-point/drawbar combos that "muffler clamp" onto the axles of 404's, but I am leery of this attachment point idea. It looks like removing the pintle and mounting a swinging drawbar system might work off the bottom of the hoe, but toungue weight is gonna be a limiting issue. I think tractor CAT 3 drawbars might be a little light, and am looking at CAT 4 or even 5 which seems oversized.
Yes it has crossed my mind that working the FLU out of this SEE is not exactly a "get a free unimog" by working with it for 2 weeks plan... biggest problem at the moment is that the "customer" of course wants me to drastically undercut the excavating firm, and I am stuck on comparing what "me and my SEE" can do dollar for dollar, from an efficient use of resources perspective with time being relative to investment and man/machine hour value. There is no real time restriction here, aside from the frost setting in, and finishing next year after the rainy season.
Every time I SEE (N.P.I.) a F-350 pulling a mini-excavator on a heavy trailer, I do feel like I am laughing all the way to the bank with "thingamadigger" as my kids call it. But actually competing with "big yellow machines" (and their bankers) is the imtellectual pissing match here. I call buying big new equipment these days "working for John Deere", not working for yourself, in the sense that you work to pay them for the machine first, yourself second.

 

[The FLU farm]

Looking for other stuff, today I came across that the loader is supposedly good for 3/4 yards.

 

[Mullaney]

I seem to be gravitating towards a swinging drawbar for hauling the trailer. In tractors it is well known that drawbars are mounted so as not to pull the tractor apart, and it seems M/B puts drawbar loads directly onto the frames on newer Mogs, avoiding "pulling" on the axles. I found some pics on Benzworld of 3-point/drawbar combos that "muffler clamp" onto the axles of 404's, but I am leery of this attachment point idea. It looks like removing the pintle and mounting a swinging drawbar system might work off the bottom of the hoe, but toungue weight is gonna be a limiting issue. I think tractor CAT 3 drawbars might be a little light, and am looking at CAT 4 or even 5 which seems oversized.
Yes it has crossed my mind that working the FLU out of this SEE is not exactly a "get a free unimog" by working with it for 2 weeks plan... biggest problem at the moment is that the "customer" of course wants me to drastically undercut the excavating firm, and I am stuck on comparing what "me and my SEE" can do dollar for dollar, from an efficient use of resources perspective with time being relative to investment and man/machine hour value. There is no real time restriction here, aside from the frost setting in, and finishing next year after the rainy season.
Every time I SEE (N.P.I.) a F-350 pulling a mini-excavator on a heavy trailer, I do feel like I am laughing all the way to the bank with "thingamadigger" as my kids call it. But actually competing with "big yellow machines" (and their bankers) is the imtellectual pissing match here. I call buying big new equipment these days "working for John Deere", not working for yourself, in the sense that you work to pay them for the machine first, yourself second.

thingamadigger,

I have small company - not in the construction or dirt moving business though. Over the years I have walked away from a lot of bid situations where "I can get it for this" was the topic of discussion. My line of thinking goes like this: I am willing to work hard. I am willing to put in long hours. But I am not going home at the end of the day tired AND BROKE. I personally would rather let my equipment sit than beat it to death and not make a fair and reasonable profit. Somewhere in the future the hours you put on the machine are going to cause it to require maintenance. Somebody has to pay for that...

Up the street from us is a "dirt moving contractor". He would most likely use a "Pan" to scoop and move the dirt. It picks up the dirt, carries the dirt to the drop-off point, drops it and runs back for more. Fast way to move a lot of dirt! Picture below.



I also found with a quick look a Forestry Service hourly pricing guide for equipment and labor. It is a 2011 version so it is OLD, but it gives you numbers to compare to whatever you might be thinking.

 

[glcaines]

Another thing to consider is what do you do if the SEE breaks down? Your only piece of equipment is now out of commission and you likely have a deadline.

 

[Tow4]

How much was your competitor's bid? You may be better off renting a large loader, or hoe and pay a local guy with a dump truck to move it. If your machine breaks, you may have to do that anyway to meet your dead line. Make sure any contract you sign doesn't leave you on the hook if you miss your dead line.

 

[thingamadigger]

I will probably not be doing this job, I have ended up bidding it at 15,000 and a month of work, contingent on actually getting the dump trailer working with a swinging drawbar. I also placed a condition that if its not done before frozen ground, it will have to wait till spring for completion, and a few other things like final grading and backfilling around foundation will require their own small tractor and its blade, or a skidsteer rental by them, and aggregates like sand and gravel is not included.
I do however have two dump trailers now, one made from a 1950 dodge 3/2 ton dump truck frame, and a slightly larger and heavier framed 1965 chevy dump truck frame, both in rough condition, getting tires and axles and the hydraulic stuff working for now. I ordered a drawbar off a john deere 100hp tractor that is 1.75" thick by 3" wide by 65" long, eta this friday maybe. At least the impetus was there to get me moving on putting this dump trailer/drawbar system together, and once I have it mounted and swinging, I will post a few pics of the mods. I have had digging a pond on my property plans for the SEE, so this should get me closer to doing that, (after which i will have real time estimates of production capabilities) and moving firewood here should become more efficient as well with the dump trailer.
The site layout would probably limit a pan scraper to 3 or 4 loads before it would be done, and the rest would need to be finished with excavators, so even though the large firm has one, it probably won't be used here, as they stay busy on big subdivision sites in the area.
I have been self-employed my whole life, and it has always been more about the fun and challenge of building custom machines in my manufacturing business, than the trudgery of running them all day to make money. I was attracted to the SEE for the same reasons I have a 16,000 lb hydraulic tracer mill with a 5'x10' moving table...possiblities.

 

[Jbulach]

I would recommend a good, heavy, short two axle dump trailer with surge brakes. Most of those truck frame trailers can get quite unruly with just a little weight.

 

[The FLU farm]

Better yet, use something else to tow the dump trailer with. That'll speed things up quite a bit.