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I'm looking at getting the big bad 10ton. . .

hurstssamx

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dma251 said:
hurstssamx said:
I answered your question right here ^ can't read ? or you just stupid dude ? I'm sure mommy din't teach you about reading but there are these thing's called letters you put them in centain oders and they from thing's called words whitch than in turn make sentences whitch form phrazes and or paragraph's. . . .But i'm sure you knew that ! ! !
Mike



Here's my count so far -

8 typos and at least 10 grammer/capitalization offenses in one big run-on sentence.

Go ahead, give me some more of your homebrew spelling lessons.


Mike- I think where this thread went wrong was that you failed to recognize the depth of the pool you chose to go swimming in. People here are into MILITARY TRUCKS. Not Pimp-Trucks. If you want advice, you would have been better off to just ask your swap question, and leave all your opinions about this engine vs. that engine and diamond-tuck black velvet interiors at the door. If there is one thing I've figured out about forums on the internet it's this. You are either asking for advice, or giving it. Don't ask for it, and then argue with the person giving it.

Anyway, like I said before, good luck with your project.

Oh yeah, since you brought up my Momma, I feel pretty justified in saying that I am beginning to understand why you and pops aren't on such good terms...
Let me guess - you knew it all, and he just "dinnent unnerstand...." [thumbzup]
More less he tried telling me how to do stuff, I figured i had all the answers so i tore into him like no mans land four years ago. He still refuses to help me with anything period !

he has 5 military trucks he updated with late model turbo diesels, over drive transmissions, and aggressive over sized radial tire's. . . . . .

He kept telling me " your not working them I am leave it be " or " if it ain't broke don't fix it " than when he would start to give me information he would get busy with somthing company related and blow me off. . .

Mike
 

dma251

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You know what, Mike? You sound, mostly, like a pretty decent guy. Not exactly an english professor, but that's okay. The last guy with letters before his name around here didn't impress me much either. (by the way - I'll NEVER call anyone here Doctor. Period.)

It's true that I (and I'm sure some others) get some good grins from guys that post on here like you did, but ultimately we all have to start somewhere with our interests.

When I found Steel Soldiers about 3 years ago I spent a good 6 months at least before I even posted anything just searching the threads. There is SO much information on here that pretty much any question you could dream up has been talked about somewhere in here. It's just a question of searching. After spending months reading and learning, I finally felt confident enough to ask some questions and start communicating without worry of making myself look like a fool. Some people like to just jump in - some people are more apt to hang back and read the crowd first.

Regardless - I think if you ask some serious questions one at a time, and be courteous about the way you treat folks here, you will see that this is a VERY valuable resource for assisting you in your project and maybe even making some friends that share your love of trucks along the way.

I think I'm gonna give you a second chance. Who knows, you may take a likin' to us,and decide that you want to start respecting these military rigs in a way that is more "compatible" with the group mentality here. Either way, we all deserve a second chance to make a complete fool of ourselves - so here's your's.

Damon
 

hurstssamx

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I didn't bother looking. I figured nobody had really asked any thing about up dating the drive line in the 10 ton Rig.

It seems only the the truck's that are still apart of a working fleet are the one's getting updated.

I only driven my dad's truck's so the only driving exspirence with them is with moderen power so they really went. . .

I just may like the 10ton just how it came, I guess i should give the truck a chance before i tear it down and spend 5 times the money making it " better "

it's in my nature i can't help I alway's want to combine the best truck with the best engine with best trans with the best wheels and tires. . .

Stock or not I can promise it will have the most Aggressive tires i can find. . .

Mike
 

cranetruck

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Mike, when you are signed in, access forum and go to "Profile" in the heading, follow instructions from there.

Don't feel bad about wanting to change some of the mechanicals of the truck IMHO it's still one more vehicle saved from the scrapper, heck we have even come to accept deuces chopped up into 4x4s and "upgraded" with other engines.....they may not be as rare as 10 tonners, but so it is.
 

spicergear

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hurstssamx said:
jeli said:
spicergear said:
Sure makes the D7 I used to haul look small.
is it me or the view But that outer rear tire look's Bald. . .

the Tire's i been looking at look like a skid steer tread/industrial tractor Lug design they make it in heavy ply for heavy haul truck's and off highway dump truck's in 16.00-24's. . .they are DOT aproved only good till 45mph tho and simex makes N-38 Looks like a Mud tire in 14.00-24 20ply and 24ply those will run 55mph. . . whats the chances of really running any faster ? slim to non i think. . .

Mike
Those are the Denman tires. If you look closely you'll see the slight zigzag of the tread.

-just a word...this isn't Pirate 4x4 where you can flame someone because you stubbed your toe or whatever so try and keep it on a certain level. Aside from that if you were getting a lot of questions about the front axle drive because we're curious about this stuff. It's not about swapping out stuff for more power or whatever, it's that theres a lot of knowledge here. Do what you will, make it work, keep in mind the addage about stepping on toes-
 

OPCOM

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dma251 said:
threads about bastardizing nice military trucks don't seem to get much traction 'round these parts.....

Might wanna talk to the guy that owns this truck...
pimped_dump_truck[1].jpg - looks like a cross between a panchinko machine and a house of ill repute.
 

m.walker

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Independence,Mo.
I don't know I moved it around to the other side of the plant the other day and I think I still like 5 tons better . They ( 10 tons ) are cool looking and lots of WOW ! factor but after that too few made and parts too hard ( and expensive ) to find . Build it how you want it and enjoy , now let's see where's the rest of my HEMTT parts , time to get to work . Mark

P.S. Road grader tires fit and are much cheaper and easier to find !
 

Attachments

DDoyle

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hurstssamx said:
DDoyle said:
The M911 also used the 14.00-24 20-ply tire - although a different tread pattern, these should be available reasonably on the surplus market, should you chose to go that route.

A concern would be how many RPMs can the front axle and steering knuckle can stand. The axles under the ten ton are duplicates of the ones under the WWII-era Mack NO - which had a top speed of something like 32 MPH. Duplicate as in the same part numbers. I am certain that the Mack engineers did not envision the kinds of revolutions you do - and loosing a tire/wheel/hub/knuckle assembly would make for a very bad day - not only for you, but for anyone else on the road in a half-mile radius.

The weak link in the diesel ten ton is not the V8-300 Cummins, but the triple reduction front axle.

DD
My dad did the same engine trans plant i am. . . He how ever ran a completely different Gear box. . .
His front axle is holding up just fine. . . runs the truck 45mph puts about 1,500 - 2,500 miles a year on it !

his engine is a stock KT-600,
KT-stage3: 600hp@2,100rpm and 1,650tq@1200rpm.9spd OD .76:1 2spd OD .85:1 so his final OD is .61:1 engine speed at 2,000rpm = 2,780rpm. . .

2,780/10.11=274.97rpm



the KT i got is running a bit more power,
KT-Cummins i have : 635.2hp@2150rpm 1735.6tq@1375rpm. Road ranger 13psd OD .62:1 engine speed at 2,000rpm=2760rpm. . .

2,760/10.11=272.99
Being late on a book deadline, I don't have the time to reread all the posts in this thread, but I thought at one time you mentioned raising the top speed of the truck, supstantially. My stock M123A1C runs 45mph, the same speed as your father's - so lubrication of the rotating portions of the driveline on his truck are clearly within the specs checked by Mack engineers when the trucks were designed in 1955. They did not check the specs at 50-60 MPH - which I thought was the speed you are seeking (if my memory of your intent is bad, I apologize). If this is the case though, it would be worthwhile to put in a call to Allentown and ask someone in engineering. You may be willing to take a chance, but the mom and kids in the car beside you as you go down the road did not sign up for these chances.

On another subject - the design of the truck and general "improvement". There is no such thing as the perfect military transport vehicle. But, they are designed to meet certain common goals. The truck must be able to operate in North America and Europe, and in the desert, in the jungle and in near arctic conditions, without modification, adjustment - and without overheating. The power train is specifically designed so that the least-robust component is the engine. That is to say, by design and intentionally, the engine is not powerful enough to snap axles and twist out drive shafts. These components are "over-engineered" around the engine. If you twist out a driveshaft on the way to a show, its an inconvenience. If your dad snaps an axle pulling a stump, he loses some pay - if a GI tears out a driveshaft, this could cause someone to die. So, better that occassionally another truck be used to help pull, than fit a more powerful engine.

Also, and again, I don't have the time now to dig up the documents - these trucks were designed to be driven off-road something like 70 percent of the time. The need for speed was nil. The Red Ball Express was/is famous for their high-speed military transport operations - the average speed IIRC was below 20, and the speed LIMIT was something like 30. When you consider that the truck was designed for off-road use, it is important too to understand the military's definition of "road". Most of us would call it a trail. In Vietnam the army had problems with the frames of five ton trucks breaking when operating ON ROAD, due to the rough roads! The military's idea of off-road is NO road, no trail, no path - merely through the woods or fields or swamp or desert.

So, while the M123A1C - and the M35A2, and the M813 are all far from ideal highway cruisers - it is because this is not what they were made for, not because they are a poor design.

When you finish your project I expect it will literally blow the doors off my truck on the highway - but I do not believe yours would survive the testing that the military subjected these trucks to off-road, in the desert, in the swamp, and in the arctic.

If your M123A1C is currently operable as stock, I would urge you to drive it - a good bit, before you tear it down for conversion. A ten ton is not fun to drive, due primarily to its steering. While driving a Freightliner you can relax and "ride" on the open road - such is nto the case for any ten ton I have driven. All of them have to be "driven" every step of the way. Whether the tires, the steering, or whatever, very poor road feel and a lot of hunting. Again, not a design flaw for a vehicle intended to be used primarily off-road - but none the less a fact of life.

And a final bit of advice - install spring safety brakes. The stock brakes are pure air brakes - no air means no brakes. Again - not a design flaw - the idea is if the bullets are flying you did not want to wait for air to build up before driving away. I know a guy who modded his drivetrain, but not the brakes. He twisted out a driveshaft, the end of which swung around and ruptured the air tank. Result - you guessed it - no brakes at all.

Regards,
DD
 

dma251

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hurstssamx, care to share with us where you are at in this project? Have you found the truck you want to use yet? I am not all that familiar with this truck - what is the going price for one?

Where are you looking? I've found that this site is a great way to get word of rigs that are for sale, too. Also Ebay. Setup a saved search for "10 ton M123" or something like that and someday you'lll be surprised by an email telling you someone's selling one.

That's how I find a lot of parts for my hemtt.


Speaking of Pirate4x4 - anyone ever catch the infamous "Charlie Wenzel" thread on there? If not, just do an internet search for the name. This guy's name has actually become a verb in the english language! "That son-of-a-***** Wenzeled me outta $200!"

Here's the link if anyone wants to see just how NOT-anonymous we really are.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=399203
 

DDoyle

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hurstssamx said:
the 903 Cummins diesel is the V-300 aka 785CID V-8. . . better get your self educated on your engine knowage . . .

Mike 903 is just a number man not HP or CID related the KT-450 up to KT-600 KT-19 KTA-19 all the same 1150CID in line 6 turbo diesel. . . just had 3 factory power setting's. . .

903 Cummins:
V300=300hp@3,000rpm non turbo. . .
VT903= 450hp@2800rpm turbo charged. . .
VTA903= 500-550hp@3,000rpm turbo charged after cooled. . .

all the same 785CID V-8. . . but i'm sure your thinking i'm some " stupid kid " !

Mike
As I was sitting here, working on a book - in a truly Warner Brothers moment, the proverbial light bulb went off over my head, and I thought that you had made the above statement.

Unfortunately, your statement above is not accurate. The VT903 and VTA903 are 903 cid engines with a 5.5000 bore and 4.75 stroke - at least that is what the Cummins service manual says.

The engine in the ten-ton, the V8-300, is a 785 cid engine, with a 5.5000 bore and 4.125 stroke. Now, none of this really relevant to the conversation {short of the "get yourself educated on some engine knowage (sic) remark}, but I understand you swapped a "spare" engine for the ten ton for the KT. If indeed it was a spare M123A1C engine - i.e. V8-300 - and you traded it off as a V903, the recipient is likely to be upset when he finds he is 118 cubes short, and that few of the parts will interchange. Just thought this was something you may want to be forthcoming about with your trade partner.

LOTS of folks look at the engine and think its a 903 - but the tag on the engine tells a different story.

Regards,
David Doyle
 
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Wow, what an interesting thread. I too want a 10 ton, marked up just like it was back in Nam. I once talked w/ Everette, Dave Doyle's dad, about having to constantly work at driving these trucks. Shifting is supposed to be fun also. There was one of these for sale last year in Michigan Truck Trader. It was in a gravel pit around here. The owner was going to convert it into an offroad dumptruck but never did. Does anyone know if that truck ever sold?
 

DDoyle

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Dave_McConnell said:
Someone also told me that 123s steered alot better with a trailer on them than when running light.
That is a distinct possibility. Now if I could just find a trailer and a M48 we could find out!

Upshifts aren't bad - the downshifts are tough. The engine and gearbox simply aren't well matched in this regard, which is why the army added the Williams Exhaust Brake to a bunch of them. I've always been leary of exhaust brakes in principle - but Bjorn is about to persuade me otherwise!

DD
 

m16ty

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Westfolk, I hope you're not hauling that PC400 under any power lines or bridges. That thing has got to be over hight.
 

ARMYMAN30YearsPlus

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Wow:
This tread has really taken off. I posted with an early view and having been out of the net for a while now see a much clearer picture of what you want to do and hope you get to accomplish your desires and stay active on Steel Soldiers so we can watch the progress.

I would say with a friendly note, that one thing I think would be great is for you to have a reconciliation with your Dad. We would love to see pictures of his mods and see him come on line too. It seems that you and I did not fall far from the tree because I was at odds with my Dad for years too. After having the wisdom to humble myself and submit to his authority as the man who brought me into this world and raised me, we had a great time up till the day he died.

Please post some pictures of your new motor and let us know how this is going.

Oh and welcome to Steel Soldiers.

We may seem rough but there are no better folks to drive or park your truck with and have a good time.
 

Recovry4x4

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As far as powering the front axle, you may look into a transfer case from an older Oshkosh mixer. I don't know of the rotation is right for the M123 axles. With that said, does anyone know for certain that the double reduction rears and triple reduction front have the same final drive ratio? This could have been compensated with transfer gearing. Lots of research to do thats for sure. That series of 10 ton is in a class all its own.
 
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