rronning84
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I found this while doing a quick search. Thought it was cool.
V199 DC10 WATER INJECTION PANEL NWA | eBay
V199 DC10 WATER INJECTION PANEL NWA | eBay
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Insane home Water/meth injection...
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Heath_h49008
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Ok... that switch panel looks awesome. Those Auberins gauge units I linked are all digital, with a choice of red, blue or green lights IIRC.
Retro, or modern? Hmmmm....
Here is what they look like. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJPpSpsbfdk[/media]
Retro, or modern? Hmmmm....
Here is what they look like. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJPpSpsbfdk[/media]
rronning84
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I have one of those gauges waiting at the hose to be installed.
Ford Mechanic
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guys my hat's off to you!!! you have clearly put alot of thought into this. i am defenatly following this so i can do the same if i find i need it.
one question i have is, what about rust? won't this cause the inside of the intake to rust, or mabey the back of the valves?
one question i have is, what about rust? won't this cause the inside of the intake to rust, or mabey the back of the valves?
Heath_h49008
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The engine gets more than hot enough to vaporize any water in contact with the metal. Don't think standing water... think steam cleaning.
Ford Mechanic
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got it! i forgot for a moment we were working relitive heat
Stalwart
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Many years ago Gale Banks Engineering offered a water injection kit for the twin turbocharged V-8 marine market. They had a relatively small pressure vessel (3 gallons if memory serves) with a sight glass for reading water level. They used boost pressure to pressurize the water tank and a Hobbes sw. to signal a solenoid valve (you need fairly large pressure lines, 1/2" ID to respond quickly enough at such low pressures). The water was sprayed in at the turbo inlet with a low pressure nozzle. The turbo helps atomize the water and the Hobbes sw. is selected at a boost level that is VERY near WOT. 
If you want to see a picture of their SS tank, I'll see if I can fine one, I have 2 sleeping above my garage somewheere.
If you want to see a picture of their SS tank, I'll see if I can fine one, I have 2 sleeping above my garage somewheere.
Heath_h49008
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I was just debating the best location for the nozzle! Pre-turbo sounds good... I'll have to get my head back into this project.
I can't wait to see the Banks system.
I can't wait to see the Banks system.
rronning84
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Pre turbo would be fine as long as it is a fine mist and not big drops of water going through the turbo.
PsycoBob
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There's already a set of fittings tapped into the intake manifold that can be used for post-turbo injection. The flame heater's injector fitting is a straight thread & the ether port is NPT. I think there's another port or two hiding on that elbow, but I'm not sure offhand.
If you use the 40psi rating for the nozzle, a cheap shop-style pressure regulator can maintain tank pressure at 40+max_boost.
My truck has a 1/4" quick-connect right in the cab, but I'd likely mount the tank in the camper box, just to make room. A manual push-button to force the valve open might not be a bad failsafe.
/edit: Found this on the Snow Performance page. Pre-turbo BAD.
14. Where can I mount the nozzle?
• The best placement of the nozzles is in the area around the inlet to the intake manifold or virtually anywhere on the pipe leading from the intercooler to the intake manifold. The nozzles can be placed at any position on the tube, so long as they are pointing at a 90 degree angle to the direction of airflow. The nozzles can be placed in a series or right next to each other. There is enough heat and velocity and flow through the pipe under boost to absorb the water/methanol regardless of the nozzle positions relative to each other.
• Some intakes are pre-drilled for Snow Performance nozzles. As long as all of the airflow into the engine will pass by all nozzles used in the system, even distribution and cooling will result.
• Placement before the intercooler or turbo(s) is not recommended. Cooling is not improved. Never mount an injector nozzle before a turbocharger compressor. Sending fluid through the compressor wheel that spins anywhere from 50,000rpm to 250,000rpm can erode the leading edges of the fine aluminum. Studies performed by SAAB, concluded that pre-turbo injection will over time cause cavitation on the turbo wheel leading edges.
15. Is it better to inject the water/methanol solution before or after the Turbo? Where is the best place for a few specific trucks? (Duramax, 7.3L Power Stroke, 5.9L common rail).
There has been more discussion recently (especially on the internet) advocating pre-turbo injection. Most of the debate centers around increased atomization. You can probably get away with this in the short run if you inject a small quantity of finely atomized fluid (less than 10micron droplet) with a very low injection duty cycle. Also if you don’t care about turbo longevity (like some competition diesels where the turbo is replaced frequently) or you have a system that doesn’t atomize correctly and need the turbulence to help (low injection pressure and nozzles that aren’t designed to atomize correctly). In diesels, especially where injection quantities are large in relation to fuel and where there is benefit to injecting at low/mid engine load states on up, it becomes a question of when compressor wheel damage becomes too severe as pre-turbo injection has been proven to cause compressor wheel erosion. The amount of erosion depends on the quantity injected, the size of the droplet injected, the speed of the compressor wheel, and the injection duty cycle (what % of total engine operation is water-methanol injected). Also, the argument of reduction in compressor work per unit flow and the increase in mass flow rate doesn’t hold water in a properly sized modern non-wastegated turbo.
If you use the 40psi rating for the nozzle, a cheap shop-style pressure regulator can maintain tank pressure at 40+max_boost.
My truck has a 1/4" quick-connect right in the cab, but I'd likely mount the tank in the camper box, just to make room. A manual push-button to force the valve open might not be a bad failsafe.
/edit: Found this on the Snow Performance page. Pre-turbo BAD.
14. Where can I mount the nozzle?
• The best placement of the nozzles is in the area around the inlet to the intake manifold or virtually anywhere on the pipe leading from the intercooler to the intake manifold. The nozzles can be placed at any position on the tube, so long as they are pointing at a 90 degree angle to the direction of airflow. The nozzles can be placed in a series or right next to each other. There is enough heat and velocity and flow through the pipe under boost to absorb the water/methanol regardless of the nozzle positions relative to each other.
• Some intakes are pre-drilled for Snow Performance nozzles. As long as all of the airflow into the engine will pass by all nozzles used in the system, even distribution and cooling will result.
• Placement before the intercooler or turbo(s) is not recommended. Cooling is not improved. Never mount an injector nozzle before a turbocharger compressor. Sending fluid through the compressor wheel that spins anywhere from 50,000rpm to 250,000rpm can erode the leading edges of the fine aluminum. Studies performed by SAAB, concluded that pre-turbo injection will over time cause cavitation on the turbo wheel leading edges.
15. Is it better to inject the water/methanol solution before or after the Turbo? Where is the best place for a few specific trucks? (Duramax, 7.3L Power Stroke, 5.9L common rail).
There has been more discussion recently (especially on the internet) advocating pre-turbo injection. Most of the debate centers around increased atomization. You can probably get away with this in the short run if you inject a small quantity of finely atomized fluid (less than 10micron droplet) with a very low injection duty cycle. Also if you don’t care about turbo longevity (like some competition diesels where the turbo is replaced frequently) or you have a system that doesn’t atomize correctly and need the turbulence to help (low injection pressure and nozzles that aren’t designed to atomize correctly). In diesels, especially where injection quantities are large in relation to fuel and where there is benefit to injecting at low/mid engine load states on up, it becomes a question of when compressor wheel damage becomes too severe as pre-turbo injection has been proven to cause compressor wheel erosion. The amount of erosion depends on the quantity injected, the size of the droplet injected, the speed of the compressor wheel, and the injection duty cycle (what % of total engine operation is water-methanol injected). Also, the argument of reduction in compressor work per unit flow and the increase in mass flow rate doesn’t hold water in a properly sized modern non-wastegated turbo.
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Heath_h49008
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Makes sense.
The nozzles will have to be tested anyway. I'm confident we can get adequate atomization with water at 90+psi injection pressure and a decent industrial nozzle.
Droplet size doesn't actually matter as much for us so long as we get even water to each cylinder. We are not burning this mixture, or preventing detonation. We are exploiting the water change of state to absorb heat energy from the combustion process.
The nozzles will have to be tested anyway. I'm confident we can get adequate atomization with water at 90+psi injection pressure and a decent industrial nozzle.
Droplet size doesn't actually matter as much for us so long as we get even water to each cylinder. We are not burning this mixture, or preventing detonation. We are exploiting the water change of state to absorb heat energy from the combustion process.
PsycoBob
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Oh, my. I just had one of those moments that will likely be shot down by the price tag of a single oddball component.... or several such.
Ever hear of a PID controller, commonly used for precise temperature control? They've gotten cheap enough that people are using them for cooking projects. I wonder if we can find a solenoid that would handle being throttled by a PID thru a solid-state relay. Vary the pressure to the nozzle with an EGT probe, automagically turning up and down flow rate to keep EGT at a preset level. Some PID controllers can run more than one output, if the spray pattern hurts too much with low nozzle pressure. Temp display is usually built-in, with calibration for K-type thermocouples.
http://www.lightobject.com/JLD612-D...-Celsius-PID-Temperature-Controller-P443.aspx
Manual's here.
http://fhupiora.fhupiora.home.pl/JLD612Manual.pdf
/edit: Yes, I realize that this is overkill unless you worry about conserving the water supply, or think excess H2O is a major concern. A multi-nozzle system or a valve capable of remaining semi-open or frequently opened would likely be as big a stumbling block as learning how to program the ****ed controller.
Ever hear of a PID controller, commonly used for precise temperature control? They've gotten cheap enough that people are using them for cooking projects. I wonder if we can find a solenoid that would handle being throttled by a PID thru a solid-state relay. Vary the pressure to the nozzle with an EGT probe, automagically turning up and down flow rate to keep EGT at a preset level. Some PID controllers can run more than one output, if the spray pattern hurts too much with low nozzle pressure. Temp display is usually built-in, with calibration for K-type thermocouples.
http://www.lightobject.com/JLD612-D...-Celsius-PID-Temperature-Controller-P443.aspx
Manual's here.
http://fhupiora.fhupiora.home.pl/JLD612Manual.pdf
/edit: Yes, I realize that this is overkill unless you worry about conserving the water supply, or think excess H2O is a major concern. A multi-nozzle system or a valve capable of remaining semi-open or frequently opened would likely be as big a stumbling block as learning how to program the ****ed controller.
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PsycoBob
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Ow. Never mind- price tags on valves are bad enough. I haven't found one yet that's intended to be electrically variable. I did stumble across something I'd been looking for for a bypass-filtration system- McMaster-Carr's listing for flow control orifices.
Stalwart
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I guess Gale Banks didn't know what he was doing then Banks Power | Gale Banks - Always Looking Toward the Future
PsycoBob
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I'm real curious why he's not marketing it now. I've not found any mention on the current Banks site about methanol injection, but I did find a single Youtube vid of a Banks StraightShot progressive system from 2011. No mention of pre/post turbo installation, or street/strip applications. I'm guessing he considers injection a racing application or a band-aid for crappy intercoolers like we've got.
The only page on the banks site that mentions water/alcohol injection is Here. It's about halfway down. Looks like it's from 1982-88, for that particular bit.
Stooging around online, I found a couple mentions of the offshore kit you mentioned a few posts up. Oddly enough, you provided more data about that kit's (optional?) injection system that every other internet source combined. All the other forum comments I've found either glossed over the injection ("It's nice."), or only mentioned air/water intercoolers. If you have any of the kit's parts, posting pics and anything you know about it would be awesome, even if just so people with half a kit can figure out what they're missing.
As a minor note, the Banks' site-search blows. Or sucks, whatever. Most of the links go back to an IP address that's local to their network, completely inaccessible to the rest of the world.
Unless I'm using the wrong terms or the data simply isn't online, I can only think of a few possibilities regarding Banks & methanol/water injection, either pre or post turbo.
1. No money in marketing it. (market saturated @ too low a price point, intercooler requires less user-intervention)
2a. Dust-sized particles hitting warp-speed blades was a bad idea in non-race applications.
2b. Modern bazillion-psi turbodiesel systems needed a pressure-washer pump to get a mist post-turbo.
/edit: Found a modern page! Here. It's under "Control Modules" about 2/3 of the way down.
The only page on the banks site that mentions water/alcohol injection is Here. It's about halfway down. Looks like it's from 1982-88, for that particular bit.
Stooging around online, I found a couple mentions of the offshore kit you mentioned a few posts up. Oddly enough, you provided more data about that kit's (optional?) injection system that every other internet source combined. All the other forum comments I've found either glossed over the injection ("It's nice."), or only mentioned air/water intercoolers. If you have any of the kit's parts, posting pics and anything you know about it would be awesome, even if just so people with half a kit can figure out what they're missing.
As a minor note, the Banks' site-search blows. Or sucks, whatever. Most of the links go back to an IP address that's local to their network, completely inaccessible to the rest of the world.
Unless I'm using the wrong terms or the data simply isn't online, I can only think of a few possibilities regarding Banks & methanol/water injection, either pre or post turbo.
1. No money in marketing it. (market saturated @ too low a price point, intercooler requires less user-intervention)
2a. Dust-sized particles hitting warp-speed blades was a bad idea in non-race applications.
2b. Modern bazillion-psi turbodiesel systems needed a pressure-washer pump to get a mist post-turbo.
/edit: Found a modern page! Here. It's under "Control Modules" about 2/3 of the way down.
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Heath_h49008
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Again... we can make a very complicated and perfectly modulated system.... but why do we need to? We are not metering fuel, or playing with the fuel air mix AT ALL. All we are doing is sucking heat out of the engine and making some steam.
Again, 3.1gpm out of that nozzle at 40psi up to 5gpm at 90psi will compensate for 150hp up to 250hp worth of "extra" fuel in this engine. (Averaged baseline of fuel cc/hp... it's in the neighborhood as I recall)
We are over watering the engine under some conditions as it is. I'm ok with that. Army tests showed no ill effects, and overcooling has no downside to efficiency. The engine will just run heat-wise as if you only had your foot 1/3 of the way into it when you're 80%+.
There is no reason I can think of to be more accurate than this with the metering. If we were adding methanol, propane to a diesel, or alcohol to a gas engine, I could understand the need for VERY accurately metered fluids.
Be happy! Our big dumb simple engine has a big dumb simple solution.
If anyone can find a fault in the math or logic, I'll be happy to modify my designs. (I'll go over my math again. I know the rate isn't linear. I'm just too beat after work to wrap my head around it. But we are talking at most 250hp TOTAL...and the engine only needs assistance for the 160-250hp zone of combustion/rate of fuel burn.)
Again, 3.1gpm out of that nozzle at 40psi up to 5gpm at 90psi will compensate for 150hp up to 250hp worth of "extra" fuel in this engine. (Averaged baseline of fuel cc/hp... it's in the neighborhood as I recall)
We are over watering the engine under some conditions as it is. I'm ok with that. Army tests showed no ill effects, and overcooling has no downside to efficiency. The engine will just run heat-wise as if you only had your foot 1/3 of the way into it when you're 80%+.
There is no reason I can think of to be more accurate than this with the metering. If we were adding methanol, propane to a diesel, or alcohol to a gas engine, I could understand the need for VERY accurately metered fluids.
Be happy! Our big dumb simple engine has a big dumb simple solution.
If anyone can find a fault in the math or logic, I'll be happy to modify my designs. (I'll go over my math again. I know the rate isn't linear. I'm just too beat after work to wrap my head around it. But we are talking at most 250hp TOTAL...and the engine only needs assistance for the 160-250hp zone of combustion/rate of fuel burn.)
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PsycoBob
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Cheap enough to get 3 nozzles & play around a bit. I'd be happy with a simple pressure switch, but that EGT/boost gauge you linked looks to be programmable to turn on the valve when egt/boost is over certain values.
Now I just have to wait for my next paycheck to play with this.
Now I just have to wait for my next paycheck to play with this.
rronning84
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The math is good. It is well within the realm of being responsible. The EGT gauge that I got which is the only one I have ever seen that comes with the thermal coupler and is 24V volt to boot for under $100 has a feature to activate a 24 accesery when the EGT's get to a certain point and then will shut it off when they come back to normal like a solenoid.
PsycoBob
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Heh. The flame-heater's spark plug hole should be 14mm, if that's a standard military plug. 1/4" NPT to 14mm adapter intended for air-holding engines in place... Those McMaster nozzles are 1/8" npt & taps are cheap. /edit! 18mm plug, not 14mm.
There's a 1/8" NPT port on top of the intake elbow for the ether-start system, I've got a boost gauge already hooked up to it. I'm not sure what the thread is on the flame-heater's injector, but it's definitely a straight thread. Anyone want to try pulling one & repurposing it for water?
I'm not sure if my current EGT probe will run an analog gauge at the same time as that nifty controller w/boost Heath referenced, but I can test it & see.
There's a 1/8" NPT port on top of the intake elbow for the ether-start system, I've got a boost gauge already hooked up to it. I'm not sure what the thread is on the flame-heater's injector, but it's definitely a straight thread. Anyone want to try pulling one & repurposing it for water?
I'm not sure if my current EGT probe will run an analog gauge at the same time as that nifty controller w/boost Heath referenced, but I can test it & see.
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Heath_h49008
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For testing purposes, we could just run it with a toggle switch or even a hand valve in the cab while we watched the egt/drove.
Also, I would double check the draw of any solenoid valve and the amp rating of the switch circuit on that gauge. We might need a relay.
Also, I would double check the draw of any solenoid valve and the amp rating of the switch circuit on that gauge. We might need a relay.