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[DIVE DIVE]

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Maybe unbolt the starter then with a pair of jumper cables - hook the positive to the big bolt and then touch the tail of the starter. It should spin like mad. BE SURE TO STAND ON IT so it doesn't jump away from you!

The bendix and be made to engage too, but this is a cheap quick test.

Yeah, I know the starter is heavy but it is an easy way to confirm what is happening...

Did that! See posts 149-153

 

[Mullaney]

Did that! See posts 149-153

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I wish I had some magic answers. Sounds to me like the fields in the starter are weak - but without the tools to test with - it's just guesswork. The lack of a heavy electrical draw kinda says that is the problem - but is no more than a guess.

 

[87cr250r]

A good starter should pull the system down to 21-23 volts while cranking.

 

[DIVE DIVE]

Yeah, I'm going to get the starter down to parade rest and double check everything, pull the field windings, stone the commutator, re-seat the brushes, then hook up my new AGMs and try it again before I give up on it. I have to figure out what is wrong with it before I start throwing money at it.

 

[Mullaney]

Yeah, I'm going to get the starter down to parade rest and double check everything, pull the field windings, stone the commutator, re-seat the brushes, then hook up my new AGMs and try it again before I give up on it. I have to figure out what is wrong with it before I start throwing money at it.

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You show being in Virginia...

What about taking the starter to a local Advance Auto or maybe AutoZone for testing? I wouldn't expect anything more than "good" or "bad" in that testing, but at least it would be worth a try - without throwing money at it.

 

[87cr250r]

They probably can't test a 24v starter.

 

[Mullaney]

They probably can't test a 24v starter.

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That could be true...
Hadn't given that enough thought.

Still, it might be worth asking - or maybe a local starter repair shop.

 

[DIVE DIVE]

Update on the starter troubleshooting. Took the starter back out, went through it again, found nothing. Only thing I could think of is that it wasn't grounding through the block, so I took it down to bare metal at the mounting point and block with a wire wheel. Checked the pinion clearance and it was sat. Side note: while trying to figure out how to check the pinion clearance I realized that you can essentially "pin" the pinion in the out position by using (what I thought was) just the drain hole on the bottom of the pinion housing. There really isn't any other way to get the pinion out when the starter is installed without engaging the coil, so i just pulled it out with a hooked scribe, and then put a small pin punch in the hole which held the pinion extended in the out position, then lifted it up and bolted it on. Anyways, hooked up the coil wire from the newly installed starter relay under the dash and left the main starter wire disconnected to first check if the pinion was shooting out all the way. Well I went to turn it over and heard the same click that I'd been hearing-pinion shoots out and half way engages the flywheel. So I went down to check starter pinion engagement and then went up to check a couple voltages on the battery and whatnot. Well then I saw the smoke coming out...disconnected the batteries but the damage was already done. Smoked the starter coil. Took me a few minutes to figure out why but eventually I realized that when I took the ignition to the start position, it immediately welded the starter relay shut and since power is always applied to the starter relay, it just kept the coil energized for a few minutes and fried it.

So I took this opportunity to stop messing with the Chinese garbage 15591718 replacement relay and replaced it with a 200 amp 12 volt relay that I had laying around from an old painless wiring battery disconnect kit.

Now I have the starter and ignition switch circuits tested and functioning correctly again and need a new starter coil (solenoid).

I suspect that even though the starter and starter solenoid tested electrically okay, that the coil was weakened and perhaps had water intrusion at some point. This led to its lack of engagement, which wasn't allowing the motor contacts to close and spin the engine. At least that is what I'm hoping.

P.S. I did find a local starter and alternator shop that will test alternators and starters (for free) and they are also familiar with CUCV alternators and can test 24 volt starters, as well as conduct any necessary repairs. Shop is called Browning's Alternator and Starter Exchange in Virginia Beach, VA.

 

[Mullaney]

Update on the starter troubleshooting. Took the starter back out, went through it again, found nothing. Only thing I could think of is that it wasn't grounding through the block, so I took it down to bare metal at the mounting point and block with a wire wheel. Checked the pinion clearance and it was sat. Side note: while trying to figure out how to check the pinion clearance I realized that you can essentially "pin" the pinion in the out position by using (what I thought was) just the drain hole on the bottom of the pinion housing. There really isn't any other way to get the pinion out when the starter is installed without engaging the coil, so i just pulled it out with a hooked scribe, and then put a small pin punch in the hole which held the pinion extended in the out position, then lifted it up and bolted it on. Anyways, hooked up the coil wire from the newly installed starter relay under the dash and left the main starter wire disconnected to first check if the pinion was shooting out all the way. Well I went to turn it over and heard the same click that I'd been hearing-pinion shoots out and half way engages the flywheel. So I went down to check starter pinion engagement and then went up to check a couple voltages on the battery and whatnot. Well then I saw the smoke coming out...disconnected the batteries but the damage was already done. Smoked the starter coil. Took me a few minutes to figure out why but eventually I realized that when I took the ignition to the run position, it immediately welded the starter relay shut and since power is always applied to the starter relay, it just kept the coil energized for a few minutes and fried it.

So I took this opportunity to stop messing with the Chinese garbage 15591718 replacement relay and replaced it with a 200 amp 12 volt relay that I had laying around from an old painless wiring battery disconnect kit.

Now I have the starter and ignition switch circuits tested and functioning correctly again and need a new starter coil (solenoid).

I suspect that even though the starter and starter solenoid tested electrically okay, that the coil was weakened and perhaps had water intrusion at some point. This led to its lack of engagement, which wasn't allowing the motor contacts to close and spin the engine. At least that is what I'm hoping.

P.S. I did find a local starter and alternator shop that will test alternators and starters (for free) and they are also familiar with CUCV alternators and can test 24 volt starters, as well as conduct any necessary repairs. Shop is called Browning's Alternator and Starter Exchange in Virginia Beach, VA.

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That's great news!!
Especially a local shop - with CUCV experience to boot!

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[DIVE DIVE]

She wants to run so bad!

 

[cucvrus]

Do NOT run it without a cooling system. It will get hot at the heads very fast. I had a friend that would start his classic 69 Z28 Camaro just to show us how good it sounded, and it was low on coolant unbeknownst to him, and it warped the heads. In the spring it ran so poorly, he had to have the engine removed again. They didn't have a low coolant light on old cars and the leak was at the lowest part in the block, so it was basically dry. It was such a small static leak that is his garage it went down the grate drain, and he never seen it. It was a $8500. 302 engine. Brass freeze plug was leaking. The temperature sending unit in the head was suspended in no fluid, so it had no high temperature sensor reading. Imagine that. Springtime was a mess when he pulled it out of the garage to cruise. Just saying in that short time, the cylinder heads will get hot. Happy Holidays and Good Luck.

 

[ezgn]

Do NOT run it without a cooling system. It will get hot at the heads very fast. I had a friend that would start his classic 69 Z28 Camaro just to show us how good it sounded, and it was low on coolant unbeknownst to him, and it warped the heads. In the spring it ran so poorly, he had to have the engine removed again. They didn't have a low coolant light on old cars and the leak was at the lowest part in the block, so it was basically dry. It was such a small static leak that is his garage it went down the grate drain, and he never seen it. It was a $8500. 302 engine. Brass freeze plug was leaking. The temperature sending unit in the head was suspended in no fluid, so it had no high temperature sensor reading. Imagine that. Springtime was a mess when he pulled it out of the garage to cruise. Just saying in that short time, the cylinder heads will get hot. Happy Holidays and Good Luck.

I would tend to agree that running a motor without the cooling system installed is a gamble. If his motive is to just fire the engine up and shut it down in 15 seconds to make sure the motor will lite up then I think he will be fine.

 

[DIVE DIVE]

Yeah I’m definitely firing the engine without the cooling system installed. Just enough to know it will start, and injection timing is correct. No belts installed.

 

[cucvrus]

It will not come off of advanced timing with no coolant. Good Luck. I just thought I would share an idea. That head area around them old head gaskets is going to get real stress test. Even the hoses hooked together with minimum coolant is better than a dry start up. Compression and heat are a deadly combination.

 

[87cr250r]

I agree. Flood the block at a minimum.

 

[DIVE DIVE]

Got the alternators tested today, both are working. I left the starter with them and he said that he thinks he might have a 24v coil. He’s going to let me know on Monday. Got the new starter relay installed and tested as well.

 

[DIVE DIVE]

Picking up my extended front front driveshaft and “fixed” starter tomorrow. I asked him if they load tested the starter and he said “ uhhhhh, yeah it works better now.” So I’m super optimistic about the results…

 

[nyoffroad]

Picking up my extended front front driveshaft and “fixed” starter tomorrow. I asked him if they load tested the starter and he said “ uhhhhh, yeah it works better now.” So I’m super optimistic about the results…

I don't know how they could 'load' test a starter without some kind of geared flywheel, and nobody I know of has anything like that .

 

[DIVE DIVE]

I don't know how they could 'load' test a starter without some kind of geared flywheel, and nobody I know of has anything like that .

I would think they would have something. Why else would I turn over a piece of gear to someone that I could test myself with a multi meter. A 18 gauge wire shows <1 ohm until I run 50 amps through it, which I believe is what my problem is.

It needs to be tested under a load, or why test it at all?

If I’m paying someone to test my starter I expect them to test it in accordance with 4-5 of -34 (which I provided) or IAW the manufacturer provided Delco remy 27MT manual. Otherwise I’m just paying some dude to swap out a coil on a starter Which I’m sure anyone including yourself could do.

 

[DIVE DIVE]

SHE RUNS!