M1010 for my daughter the field biologist

[Csm Davis]

I never heard of a ready-welder before.

Is that the little "cartridge" thing in the toolbox;; what's the story?


View attachment 580115

Naw it is the black piece with the round bottom, here's a different picture,and link http://readywelder.com/

 

[Csm Davis]

The ready-welder is a battery powered spool gun that will run off of car batteries setup between 12-48 volts and can also be used as a spool gun on most big DC welders. It will weld a longer continuous bead than you can run it has a 100% duty cycle, meaning that it doesn't get hot and have to stop and cool down. AND it all fits in a briefcase and in your truck.

 

[Another Ahab]

Naw it is the black piece with the round bottom, here's a different picture,and link http://readywelder.com/
View attachment 580117

Now that is pretty slick; never heard of these until right now:

- So it's wire-feed and not a stick welder, right?

And it's GOT to be a whole lot cheaper than a full-cycle Miller machine or a Hobart or something.

 

[Csm Davis]

Yeah wire feed, and everything cost around 6-700

 

[Another Ahab]

Yeah wire feed, and everything cost around 6-700

Dang, that's pricier than I thought it would be. I mean I'm sure it's all good-and-solid, but seems like you could pick up a little Miller MIG machine for about the same (+/_).

Of course it wouldn't be the battery set-up (which is pretty slick I admit, but makes the choice to buy it a little more tough). Good item, though for sure, especially the way you all are describing it.

 

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Ready Welder

In that photo, my cloth helmet bag sits on the open lid of my Ready Welder set. http://readywelder.com has all the details. The black plastic case contains the Ready Welder MIG gun and the wires that feed it. You circled the optional Cold Switch, a red box containing a relay that only powers the welder when the trigger is pulled. Some people forgo the switch and just unplug it to make it not hot. That saves money, weight, and complexity, at a cost of safety and convenience of operation.

I keep some magnets and MIG pliers in the Ready Welder kit. Those did not come with it. The helmet bag contains welding helmet, gloves, sleeves, and soapstone markers. The rest is the standard Ready Welder kit.

In a nutshell, Ready Welder allows you to MIG weld using the power from your vehicle batteries. If you're not welding something connected to your vehicle's ground, you can run the engine and you have alternator power plus battery power available. I removed the steps from the vehicle before welding them, so I could have done this, but I forgot to start the truck before welding. Oops. If you are welding something that is grounded to the truck, like a broken frame, you simply disconnect the batteries from the truck before welding. You can't use alternator power for welding in that case. You do not want your welding ground travelling through your vehicle ground path. Too many amps. Only bad things would come of that.

Back in the day, some old school folks would do field welding repairs using a welding rod connected to the vehicle battery via jumper cables. If you had sufficient stick welding skills, this could be done. Ready Welder gives you a more refined MIG version of the same approach.

A few welding sticks in your tool box take up a lot less space than a Ready Welder, assuming you already carry jumper cables. But the Ready Welder requires *massively* less skill, it provides much greater control, and if you add gas and the right wire, you can weld aluminum, stainless, and other metals in addition to steel. I don't have the stick welding skills to do it old school, so I carry a Ready Welder.

I've ordered the parts necessary to plug the Ready Welder directly into the NATO slave port. You can buy the NATO version of the Ready Welder, which comes with the slave port connector.

I never heard of a ready-welder before.

Is that the little "cartridge" thing in the toolbox;; what's the story?


View attachment 580115

 

[Csm Davis]

Dang, that's pricier than I thought it would be. I mean I'm sure it's all good-and-solid, but seems like you could pick up a little Miller MIG machine for about the same (+/_).

Of course it wouldn't be the battery set-up (which is pretty slick I admit, but makes the choice to buy it a little more tough). Good item, though for sure, especially the way you all are describing it.

If you put them side by side it becomes a no brainer the little box machines are good for thin body parts but the ready-welder can weld up 1/2 no problem. Also you would need a generator to run one away from home and they would take up much more room, I believe dollar for dollar you can't get close to the same performance out of any other welder on the market.http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?t=90994

 

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True. The Ready Welder will handle *much* more power than a home MIG machine can produce. I used mine in the driveway. Once I get my NATO slave connector set up, the Ready Welder will be just as convenient as a home MIG machine when at home, and far more useful in the field.

Dang, that's pricier than I thought it would be. I mean I'm sure it's all good-and-solid, but seems like you could pick up a little Miller MIG machine for about the same (+/_).

Of course it wouldn't be the battery set-up (which is pretty slick I admit, but makes the choice to buy it a little more tough). Good item, though for sure, especially the way you all are describing it.

 

[Another Ahab]

A few welding sticks in your tool box take up a lot less space than a Ready Welder, assuming you already carry jumper cables. But the Ready Welder requires *massively* less skill, it provides much greater control, and if you add gas and the right wire, you can weld aluminum, stainless, and other metals in addition to steel. I don't have the stick welding skills to do it old school, so I carry a Ready Welder.

That sounds VERY cool.

Until you all mentioned it here, I had no idea this set-up even existed. I need to look into this some more.

Thanks for posting about it.

 

[jpg]

Ready Welder

I got my Ready Welder from Tin H Do at http://www.wcxsports.com/welders.html. wcxsports@yahoo.com. He had the best price at the time, but that was years ago. YMMV. I had an e-mail conversation with him to discuss models and options, and he steered me to the best model/price for my needs.

I have no connection with him other than as a happy customer.

I don't know if SS organizes group purchases, but I'm sure he would work with us if we did.

 

[Csm Davis]

Also I have a Lincoln cracker jack, a Miller 220v mig, and a Miller Bobcat gasoline powered welders and will grab my ready-welder 60% of the time to do most welding jobs.
Now back to the young ladies 1010, jpg are you going to add a Ready-welder to her truck?

 

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Also I have a Lincoln cracker jack, a Miller 220v mig, and a Miller Bobcat gasoline powered welders and will grab my ready-welder 60% of the time to do most welding jobs.
Now back to the young ladies 1010, jpg are you going to add a Ready-welder to her truck?

Absolutely! The Ready Welder already lives in the truck. I used it yesterday to weld a part to the truck. I haven't taught her to weld yet, but that's on the list.

 

[Another Ahab]

Absolutely! The Ready Welder already lives in the truck. I used it yesterday to weld a part to the truck. I haven't taught her to weld yet, but that's on the list.

A welding instructor who taught me through the local community college told all of us in the class that some of the best welders he ran across were women. He said he guessed it was because of their patience. He had worked as a weld inspector during the build of the Alaska Pipeline. He said there more than a few women working that project as welders (and yeah, this was a while back). Please tell your daughter THAT story.

 

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Plan B Mod Battery charging performance

My dashboard voltmeter says I'm just barely over the line into the red zone, so I looked into this. I measured voltages with a meter at 4 times:

1. With the engine idling, and without having done anything to drain the batteries prior to starting.
2. With the "fast idle" screw pushed all the way in.
3. Immediately after turning off engine.
4. 1 hour later.

Here's what I found:

1. 13.7V at the front battery, 14.8 at the back, and 28.65 across the two.
   
2. 13.8V at the front battery, 15 at the back, and 28.7 across the two.
3. 13 V at the front battery, 13,2 at the back, and 26.1 across the two.
4. 12.7V at the front battery, 12.7 at the back, and 25.55 across the two.

​
The alternators are standard Plan B Mod, 160A 12V on top, and 200A 24V on the bottom. The batteries are Penn Mfg. Deka commercial type 31s, 1140 CCA@32deg each. I know many guys run Interstate remans, but this truck is for my daughter to take into the wilderness, so I got good batteries. The manufacturer says not to charge them with more then 16V.

I was taught that 14.4V was the ideal voltage you want for charging an old-fashioned flooded lead/acid battery. So the front battery voltage is a little low, the back battery voltage is a little high. The voltage across the 2 batteries is just a hair below the ideal of 14.4X2=28.8. This is presumably the voltage that the dashboard meter measures, so the fact that this measures just into the red means the dashboard meter is off. I'll look for a corroded ground there.

The Voltage Regulator on the 24V alternator is producing just under 28.8V across the two batteries, so it's doing its job well. I find it interesting that the 2 alternators in concert charge the back battery about half a volt higher than ideal, and the front battery about half a volt low.

I wonder if adjusting the 12V voltage regulator up half a volt would bring the batteries into balance. My batteries are robust enough that the difference probably doesn't matter, since we're well below the manufacturer's 16V limit. For someone running less robust batteries, that half volt might cause the back battery to cook.

I'm probably going to leave this alone, unless someone who knows more about this stuff tells me I have a problem that merits action. I mention it because others running the Plan B Mod might have a back battery that cares about that extra half volt of charge. If I find myself with time on my hands some day, I might try to learn how to adjust the 12V voltage regulator up half a volt.

 

[Another Ahab]

I'm probably going to leave this alone, unless someone who knows more about this stuff tells me I have a problem that merits action. I mention it because others running the Plan B Mod might have a back battery that cares about that extra half volt of charge. If I find myself with time on my hands some day, I might try to learn how to adjust the 12V voltage regulator up half a volt.

You sound like you know a WHOLE lot more about batteries than I'll ever know, jpg.

But I'm learning all that I can from you; thanks for that!

I would have just driven over to The Battery Store and asked the bud there, "Hey, can you help me here!?"

 

[tim292stro]

...The alternators are standard Plan B Mod, 160A 12V on top, and 200A 24V on the bottom...
The Voltage Regulator on the 24V alternator is producing just under 28.8V across the two batteries, so it's doing its job well. I find it interesting that the 2 alternators in concert charge the back battery about half a volt higher than ideal, and the front battery about half a volt low...

...I wonder if adjusting the 12V voltage regulator up half a volt would bring the batteries into balance. My batteries are robust enough that the difference probably doesn't matter, since we're well below the manufacturer's 16V limit. For someone running less robust batteries, that half volt might cause the back battery to cook...

I'm curious as to your setup. From my recollection, the M1010 is the only CUCV version with a single 24V alternator, so this dual alternator thing is probably making a mess of your voltages - especially if the alternators are not the same voltage and routed to a specific load.

One of the beautiful things about the GM CUCV electrical system is that each 12V battery had its own dedicated source of 12V power generation. With 12V loads one the lower 12V battery, only the alternator that saw those loads had to deal with them. So few things used 24V on the trucks, that you essentially had a spare alternator in the truck - you could take the high-side battery's alternator and put it on the lower 12V battery, and still have enough juice in the uncharging upper battery to glow your plugs and crank a few times - more than enough to limp home.

When using a 24 Volt alternator to charge a series string of 12V batteries, you don't want a separate charging source on one battery. This is due to the way that the alternator's voltage regulators work - they presume a very simple electrical system where they are the ONLY source or charging power. If your lower 12V battery is being charged by the 12V alternator, the unloaded upper battery may get undercharged as the 24V alternator's regulator would see a higher circuit voltage and attempt to fix that by dropping the output current of the 24V alternator. You would still measure a fairly normal 24V charging voltage because the regulator is correctly cutting the power. The flip side is your 12V battery could see an undercharge if your upper battery was absorbing less charge and allowing the lower battery to receive more of the voltage - this would have the reverse effect of tricking the lower 12V alternator into turning off its field to prevent an over-voltage condition.

Either way, it's inherently unstable to have two alternators working as a team with no knowledge of each other. Think of it like this, you're in a row boat and you have the left oar in your hands and you have to correct the course of the boat with it while propelling the boat forward. Some other guy you've never met is sitting on the other side of a wall going straight down the center of the boat doing the same thing with the right oar. Neither of you knows the others strength or how big your oar is, and you aren't allowed to talk to each other. The only way you can attempt to steer the boat is by watching what the boat is doing and reacting to it. Not an efficient/effective way to master a boat is it?

Enter as the hero here is a device called a Vanner - this is a "simple" device that takes a 12V output and makes it exactly 1/2 in reference to ground of what the 24V input referenced to ground. In this way, the 24V alternator only has to watch it sole job of getting the 24V (28.8-29.5) set-point right, the Vanner takes care of equalizing the batteries. If you draw power from the 12V low-side battery, the Vanner makes up the difference while keeping the voltage exactly half of the 24V reference input. This also means that your 24V series string will act as double the size 12V battery, since the total amps drawn from the 12V supply is made up from the full 24V input (double voltage, half current).

Vanners are cheap, I've see the 100Amp version for less than $200 used in good shape, you can team/parallel some models to get higher capacity (70 series for example). One of the slick things you can also do with this is charge a separate 12V battery from a 24V power source without the need for an additional isolator diode. Refresh my memory, do you have a separate house battery bank in this truck? Can you provide a rough sketch of the main power generation circuit in this truck?

 

[jpg]

Thanks, tim292stro, for taking the time for such a detailed post.

The stock M1010 has 2 200A 24V alternators and a device called a DUVAC. The bottom alternator charges the 24V battery bank. The top alternator provides 12V power to the vehicle, and charges the front battery, which is the one connected to ground. I'm told the DUVAC rapidly cycled the top alternator on and off to make it produce 12V-14.4V, even though it's a 24V alternator designed to produce at least 18V. What could possibly go wrong? (Lots!)

Many schemes have been tried to replace this with a more reliable and trouble-free system. The SS Plan B Mod is the name of the most successful and widely used (I'm told) approach. If you're interested in this topic, I suggest you read that thread. It covers all the details.

My personal M1010 came with a fried top alternator. Parts for an alternator rebuild were $650, and we didn't know if the DUVAC fried too, so we went for the Plan B Mod. This replaces the upper alternator and the DUVAC with a 160A 12V single-wire alternator.

Remember the 12V vehicle power is drawn from the front battery and the alternator that feeds it. If you only used the 24V alternator to charge both batteries in series, and you draw 12V from the front battery, that front battery will quickly become depleted. I found out about this in detail on my 600-mile recovery with a failed top alternator.

I hear what you're saying about the 2 alternators not coordinating their efforts. The point of my earlier post was to document the fact that this dual-independent-alternator approach seems imperfect, at least on my truck. Compared to the 14.4 volt ideal, the front battery charging voltage is about half a volt low, and the rear is about half a volt high. It's also true that the rear battery is only used in starting. It sees no load when the truck is running, while the front battery & its alternator provide all 12V power to the truck. That load difference might account for the half volt.

Folks have tried lots of different approaches, using lots of different devices to replace the DUVAC. I read all their horror stories, and went with the Plan B Mod because folks say it works. I have about 1500 miles on mine -- so far so good.

I do not have a separate house bank. I do have plans to add a separate starter bank, used only for starting, and run the rest of the truck off what you might call the house bank. That would require the addition of a simple battery isolator. You asked for a wiring diagram. This is what I have in mind for adding a starter bank. I bet you won't ask for a wiring diagram again. ;^) The idea here is to reserve the starter bank for starting only, and run everything else off the "house" bank. A few items essential to starting (Glowplugs, coolant heater, battery heater) live on an Aux Start distribution block. These normally run off the house bank, but if we screw up and run that flat, we can run Aux Start off the starter bank. This is a whole separate topic, though.

I don't have an as-built picture handy, but if you look at the picture linked above, the starter solenoid goes to the 24V Distribution Block, and the isolation relays and starter bank (the upper right portion of the diagram) do not exist.

Back to the original issue, I think that if I adjusted my 12V alternator to output 14.4V, rather than the 13.8-ish it outputs now, then my batteries would receive balanced charges. With my batteries, I don't think that adjustment would make a bit of difference in their performance or longevity. For others running less robust batteries, that difference might be important. That's why I broached this topic in the first place.

Thanks again for your contribution to our dialog.
-jpg

I'm curious as to your setup. From my recollection, the M1010 is the only CUCV version with a single 24V alternator, so this dual alternator thing is probably making a mess of your voltages - especially if the alternators are not the same voltage and routed to a specific load.

One of the beautiful things about the GM CUCV electrical system is that each 12V battery had its own dedicated source of 12V power generation. With 12V loads one the lower 12V battery, only the alternator that saw those loads had to deal with them. So few things used 24V on the trucks, that you essentially had a spare alternator in the truck - you could take the high-side battery's alternator and put it on the lower 12V battery, and still have enough juice in the uncharging upper battery to glow your plugs and crank a few times - more than enough to limp home.

When using a 24 Volt alternator to charge a series string of 12V batteries, you don't want a separate charging source on one battery. This is due to the way that the alternator's voltage regulators work - they presume a very simple electrical system where they are the ONLY source or charging power. If your lower 12V battery is being charged by the 12V alternator, the unloaded upper battery may get undercharged as the 24V alternator's regulator would see a higher circuit voltage and attempt to fix that by dropping the output current of the 24V alternator. You would still measure a fairly normal 24V charging voltage because the regulator is correctly cutting the power. The flip side is your 12V battery could see an undercharge if your upper battery was absorbing less charge and allowing the lower battery to receive more of the voltage - this would have the reverse effect of tricking the lower 12V alternator into turning off its field to prevent an over-voltage condition.

Either way, it's inherently unstable to have two alternators working as a team with no knowledge of each other. Think of it like this, you're in a row boat and you have the left oar in your hands and you have to correct the course of the boat with it while propelling the boat forward. Some other guy you've never met is sitting on the other side of a wall going straight down the center of the boat doing the same thing with the right oar. Neither of you knows the others strength or how big your oar is, and you aren't allowed to talk to each other. The only way you can attempt to steer the boat is by watching what the boat is doing and reacting to it. Not an efficient/effective way to master a boat is it?

Enter as the hero here is a device called a Vanner - this is a "simple" device that takes a 12V output and makes it exactly 1/2 in reference to ground of what the 24V input referenced to ground. In this way, the 24V alternator only has to watch it sole job of getting the 24V (28.8-29.5) set-point right, the Vanner takes care of equalizing the batteries. If you draw power from the 12V low-side battery, the Vanner makes up the difference while keeping the voltage exactly half of the 24V reference input. This also means that your 24V series string will act as double the size 12V battery, since the total amps drawn from the 12V supply is made up from the full 24V input (double voltage, half current).

Vanners are cheap, I've see the 100Amp version for less than $200 used in good shape, you can team/parallel some models to get higher capacity (70 series for example). One of the slick things you can also do with this is charge a separate 12V battery from a 24V power source without the need for an additional isolator diode. Refresh my memory, do you have a separate house battery bank in this truck? Can you provide a rough sketch of the main power generation circuit in this truck?

 

[Recovry4x4]

I am the odd man out with this. I have the "plan B" mod 2.0. Both of my 24V alts were replaced with 12V Leece Nevilles alts. Since these are iso ground as built, each has it's own battery to charge. 3 years running, sans issues.

 

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I am the odd man out with this. I have the "plan B" mod 2.0. Both of my 24V alts were replaced with 12V Leece Nevilles alts. Since these are iso ground as built, each has it's own battery to charge. 3 years running, sans issues.

This sounds like a very clean solution. The only down side is fewer amps of 24V power. If I'm right in assuming you're using the 160A 12V alts, that gives you 160A of 24V available from the alternators. The original Plan B mod gives you 280A of 24V power from the alternators, if I understand correctly. Most folks won't notice the 120A difference, unless they run a big 24V inverter or winch, or other large 24V load.

 

[Csm Davis]

My dashboard voltmeter says I'm just barely over the line into the red zone, so I looked into this. I measured voltages with a meter at 4 times:

1. With the engine idling, and without having done anything to drain the batteries prior to starting.
2. With the "fast idle" screw pushed all the way in.
3. Immediately after turning off engine.
4. 1 hour later.

Here's what I found:

1. 13.7V at the front battery, 14.8 at the back, and 28.65 across the two.
   
2. 13.8V at the front battery, 15 at the back, and 28.7 across the two.
3. 13 V at the front battery, 13,2 at the back, and 26.1 across the two.
4. 12.7V at the front battery, 12.7 at the back, and 25.55 across the two.

​
The alternators are standard Plan B Mod, 160A 12V on top, and 200A 24V on the bottom. The batteries are Penn Mfg. Deka commercial type 31s, 1140 CCA@32deg each. I know many guys run Interstate remans, but this truck is for my daughter to take into the wilderness, so I got good batteries. The manufacturer says not to charge them with more then 16V.

I was taught that 14.4V was the ideal voltage you want for charging an old-fashioned flooded lead/acid battery. So the front battery voltage is a little low, the back battery voltage is a little high. The voltage across the 2 batteries is just a hair below the ideal of 14.4X2=28.8. This is presumably the voltage that the dashboard meter measures, so the fact that this measures just into the red means the dashboard meter is off. I'll look for a corroded ground there.

The Voltage Regulator on the 24V alternator is producing just under 28.8V across the two batteries, so it's doing its job well. I find it interesting that the 2 alternators in concert charge the back battery about half a volt higher than ideal, and the front battery about half a volt low.

I wonder if adjusting the 12V voltage regulator up half a volt would bring the batteries into balance. My batteries are robust enough that the difference probably doesn't matter, since we're well below the manufacturer's 16V limit. For someone running less robust batteries, that half volt might cause the back battery to cook.

I'm probably going to leave this alone, unless someone who knows more about this stuff tells me I have a problem that merits action. I mention it because others running the Plan B Mod might have a back battery that cares about that extra half volt of charge. If I find myself with time on my hands some day, I might try to learn how to adjust the 12V voltage regulator up half a volt.

Jpg I think it is funny I was thinking about this before I looked at SS this morning. I think your upper voltage is spot on at 28.7 unless I missed something. Now on the lower voltage there might be some interference from the 24v alt with the 12v alt you might want to remove the 24v alt belt crank the truck then remove the jumper to 24v battery and then test the 12v alt.i think the 12v might just be acting lazy because it sees full or close to it voltage out there. Yes guy's I know this is not the most technical way to describe this but I think I got my point across.