rockbronco
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M35a2 fuel cutoff rod springs back to firewall 5 o'clock position when cover removed
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rockbronco
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rockbronco
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OK so removed the FDC today and took a couple pic's, I expected to see more under the FDC based on the pic's I've seen online but this is what's under it, I did not see any broken springs or missing components I did not see any thing hanging the rod up.
I did notice once I removed the throttle cable (one connected to pedal) from the arm on the pump(where floor pedal connects externally to IP) that the lever that actuates(lever connected to hydraulic head under shut off cover) the fuel shut off is no longer spring loaded, without the throttle hooked up I can move the arm to any position and leave it there. IS this normal or should the arm still be spring loaded with the throttle cable disconnected?
I removed the internal fuel cut off rod (cut wire on two internal screws) rod was very clean no varnish and moved freely , looked into hydraulic head looked clean and internal plunger(the one the arm actuates) moves up and down freely with next to no effort.
Also I started the truck without the throttle cable connect and noticed engine will go to full throttle immediately without that cable connected to the IP, once I reconnect cable I have to hold the gas pedal down once again to get it to start and to keep it running.
I did notice once I removed the throttle cable (one connected to pedal) from the arm on the pump(where floor pedal connects externally to IP) that the lever that actuates(lever connected to hydraulic head under shut off cover) the fuel shut off is no longer spring loaded, without the throttle hooked up I can move the arm to any position and leave it there. IS this normal or should the arm still be spring loaded with the throttle cable disconnected?
I removed the internal fuel cut off rod (cut wire on two internal screws) rod was very clean no varnish and moved freely , looked into hydraulic head looked clean and internal plunger(the one the arm actuates) moves up and down freely with next to no effort.
Also I started the truck without the throttle cable connect and noticed engine will go to full throttle immediately without that cable connected to the IP, once I reconnect cable I have to hold the gas pedal down once again to get it to start and to keep it running.
gimpyrobb
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I'm out of town right now. I'll have to get back to you on this tomorrow.
rockbronco
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Does the Hydraulic head provide any of the return pressure on the shut lever? I'm just trying to figure out where any return pressure would come from other than the throttle rod return spring.
gimpyrobb
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Minimal amount. The fuel block in the hydraulic head has gravity pulling it down, so that might help the lever go to the shut off position, but I doubt that has anything to do with it.
rockbronco
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I was curious if the HH pressure was helping the lever move to the 7 o'clock position because the only thing I can see that effect lever so far is the spring on my throttle cable, once the throttle cable is disconnected the lever will move forward with the pressure created from cranking the engine. I'm trying to understand what and how many components are involved in the positioning of the lever.
rockbronco
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After reading details of the following post I think I need to take the rear cover off the pump to get anymore info on the position of the rod. thoughts?
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?127266-71-m35a2-no-start-no-fuel/page5
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?127266-71-m35a2-no-start-no-fuel/page5
gimpyrobb
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I did not remember that thread! yeah, it probably wouldn't hurt to pull it and see whats going on in there.
rockbronco
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other than removing the throttle lever that goes into the side of the IP is there anything else to disconnect internally prior to removing the governor housing or will it just slide back towards the firewall after the houseing bolts are removed?
rockbronco
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I also noticed yesterday after I removed the throttle linkage and spring that are attached to the pedal the little throttle arm on the IP has movement 1n both directions where there is no spring response until you get to the far forward and far rear positions, so essentially no spring retention in either directions until you are at nearly full travel distance on the arm. I figured since the TM shows a spring that returns that lever to position that it wouldnt have as much play in it as I had found it to have.
So my question is if the throttle rod from the pedal is disconnected from the IP throttle arm does that throttle arm spring hold the shut off lever in the 7 o'clock position or is it just the pedal return string that holds the lever in the 7 o'clock postion?
I'm wondering if the throttle arm spring inside the governor housing may be bad , it appears from the TM's that the throttle arm is on a spring with a key that goes into the fulcrum lever.
So my question is if the throttle rod from the pedal is disconnected from the IP throttle arm does that throttle arm spring hold the shut off lever in the 7 o'clock position or is it just the pedal return string that holds the lever in the 7 o'clock postion?
I'm wondering if the throttle arm spring inside the governor housing may be bad , it appears from the TM's that the throttle arm is on a spring with a key that goes into the fulcrum lever.
gimpyrobb
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I haven't got a lot of time right now, but if you wait a bit, I'll try taking one of the ones here apart to see whats in there.
RAYZER
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I have an ip sitting on the bench that i just looked at, on mine the throttle linkage arm has no spring load between 6 and seven, but does between
6 and 4:30.
6 and 4:30.
rockbronco
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Would you check the following for me , when you look at an IP that is not installed in a vehicle does the throttle lever arm going into the governor cover have spring retention holding it in position?
when I disconnect my throttle linkage from the arm on the governor housing is flops around with no spring retention it will stay in any position I put it in , normally I would think being a throttle control it would always stay in a common position due to the shaft spring.
when I disconnect my throttle linkage from the arm on the governor housing is flops around with no spring retention it will stay in any position I put it in , normally I would think being a throttle control it would always stay in a common position due to the shaft spring.
rockbronco
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so then if you were to take off the shut off rod cover having no load on throttle lever does the shut off lever sit at the 6 oclock position on its own?
RAYZER
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Ok,looked at it again,this pump has no HH on it, when I hold the govener rod where it should be hooked into the fuel shutoff shaft,then there is spring tension between 6 and 7 ,that spring tension is applied by the govener springs in the rear of the govener housing (round plate on back of ip).
Have you pulled the fuel density compensator to take a look inside?
Edit: I see that you have.
Have you pulled the fuel density compensator to take a look inside?
Edit: I see that you have.
RAYZER
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The arm should not stay in any position you put it.
rockbronco
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Another day under the hood , removed the fuel cut off cover to expose the lever still in 5 o'clock position, removed FDC to expose other end of cut off rod and fulcrum lever (fulcrum not damaged) noticed steel tab that connects it to throttle rod is present and intact. I actuated the throttle rod to be sure it moved the cut off rod position and it works as expected.
Drained oil from governor housing to make sure no loose parts or metal of any kind it was very clean inside. Noticed when removing throttle lever from the rod that the marks used to line up the throttle lever was off a tooth, moved the lever to stock position, checked all springs on the throttle rod and pedal all were in good condition and operating as expected.
I noticed even when the throttle cable is not connected the fuel shut off rod always springs to the rear of the governor housing, is this spring action created by the governor springs and if so can I actuate the governor manually so I can see the full travel , as of now I have never seen the fulcrum sitting in the straight up position without me moving it with one of the levers.
I also noticed while running it today I was able to get it to idle at 900 for about 10 minutes with the throttle cable pulled about 3/4 inch but what was strange was when a load was put on the engine the IP couldn't compensate for the added load so the engine started to stall, the load on the engine was the air compressor kicking in and once I stabilized the idle again with hand throttle I tried to apply pressure by slowly engaging the clutch and again it wanted to stall so pushed in clutch and depressed floor pedal. After that it was having a hard time maintaining a solid RPM with the hand throttle below 1100 again.
Drained oil from governor housing to make sure no loose parts or metal of any kind it was very clean inside. Noticed when removing throttle lever from the rod that the marks used to line up the throttle lever was off a tooth, moved the lever to stock position, checked all springs on the throttle rod and pedal all were in good condition and operating as expected.
I noticed even when the throttle cable is not connected the fuel shut off rod always springs to the rear of the governor housing, is this spring action created by the governor springs and if so can I actuate the governor manually so I can see the full travel , as of now I have never seen the fulcrum sitting in the straight up position without me moving it with one of the levers.
I also noticed while running it today I was able to get it to idle at 900 for about 10 minutes with the throttle cable pulled about 3/4 inch but what was strange was when a load was put on the engine the IP couldn't compensate for the added load so the engine started to stall, the load on the engine was the air compressor kicking in and once I stabilized the idle again with hand throttle I tried to apply pressure by slowly engaging the clutch and again it wanted to stall so pushed in clutch and depressed floor pedal. After that it was having a hard time maintaining a solid RPM with the hand throttle below 1100 again.
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Jeepsinker
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You definitely have a spring broken somewhere.
rockbronco
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I have pulled this pump apart 4 times now and nothing is really jumping out at me on this issue, At this point I guess all I can do is remove the governor housing and hope something jumps out at me.
I hate to just throw a new IP at it without understanding the problem, I've been reading TM's for 3 weeks now and feel like I'm running out of options based on my own ability at this point.
I had my brother come over and take a look at it last night he is a ASE mechanic with 25 years experience and the only thing he could tell me is he thinks the governor may be problem based on the way its running he thinks my foot is essentially doing the governors job for it. What mainly concerned him was that the IP wasn't compensating for additional load on the engine(when compressor kicked in or when I tried to let out clutch in gear), prior to having this problem I could put the truck in 1st gear and let out the clutch with NO extra gas and truck would take off on its own it would even pull my trailer in first gear at idle now just a small amount of load will stall it.
He said the exhaust sounds great , no vibration in the engine , very little smoke from exhaust unless I'm putting my foot it in then I get a puff of black that quickly clears, cylinders are all running at equal temp when checked with IR thermal gun.
I really appreciate all the responses I have been getting from the members here you have all given me some direction and ideas for working the issue, if you guys have a chance would you try bouncing this issue of some of the other members you know here , I need all the help I can get on this.
A few members have mentioned this sounds like a HH beginning to go bad but my concern with that theory is how would that effect the position of the cut off rod and why would it run so well above 1000 RPM and why would I have to hold pedal to the floor to start it. When I had the cut off rod cover off I noticed it is only the pedal that is moving the cut off lever towards the 7 o'clock postion and nothing else which is why feathering the pedal seems to keep it running at low RPM.
I hate to just throw a new IP at it without understanding the problem, I've been reading TM's for 3 weeks now and feel like I'm running out of options based on my own ability at this point.
I had my brother come over and take a look at it last night he is a ASE mechanic with 25 years experience and the only thing he could tell me is he thinks the governor may be problem based on the way its running he thinks my foot is essentially doing the governors job for it. What mainly concerned him was that the IP wasn't compensating for additional load on the engine(when compressor kicked in or when I tried to let out clutch in gear), prior to having this problem I could put the truck in 1st gear and let out the clutch with NO extra gas and truck would take off on its own it would even pull my trailer in first gear at idle now just a small amount of load will stall it.
He said the exhaust sounds great , no vibration in the engine , very little smoke from exhaust unless I'm putting my foot it in then I get a puff of black that quickly clears, cylinders are all running at equal temp when checked with IR thermal gun.
I really appreciate all the responses I have been getting from the members here you have all given me some direction and ideas for working the issue, if you guys have a chance would you try bouncing this issue of some of the other members you know here , I need all the help I can get on this.
A few members have mentioned this sounds like a HH beginning to go bad but my concern with that theory is how would that effect the position of the cut off rod and why would it run so well above 1000 RPM and why would I have to hold pedal to the floor to start it. When I had the cut off rod cover off I noticed it is only the pedal that is moving the cut off lever towards the 7 o'clock postion and nothing else which is why feathering the pedal seems to keep it running at low RPM.