max HP out of a 465 multi fuel?

[patracy]

Hornetfan: Dude, just get used to it. There are more than a handful of people that love to come into the "Deuce Modification and Hot-Rodding" forum only to say something on the deuce shouldn't be modified. No names, just an observation.

Get out there and prove them wrong! I try to do it everyday I work on my deuce. If it doesn't work and you fail miserably, well, chock it up as a lesson learned and move on. Just do all of your custom motor testing on a closed highway so you don't injure the public and cause harm to the MV hobby.

Did you get your truck Dyno'ed yet? I'm curious to see those numbers.

 

[hornetfan]

Hornetfan: Dude, just get used to it. There are more than a handful of people that love to come into the "Deuce Modification and Hot-Rodding" forum only to say something on the deuce shouldn't be modified. No names, just an observation.

Get out there and prove them wrong! I try to do it everyday I work on my deuce. If it doesn't work and you fail miserably, well, chock it up as a lesson learned and move on. Just do all of your custom motor testing on a closed highway so you don't injure the public and cause harm to the MV hobby.

Thanks, Hank! I needed that. In fairness, I got patracy and doghead confused and I also got hot because I've built more engines that most people have ever SEEN on an engine stand, most of them diesels and most of them enhanced performance.

But to the Forum as a whole and this thread in particular: MEA CULPA

I love this thread and the discussions it has generated. This stuff ain't rocket science guys (liquid rockets are MUCH more dangerous!) Backyard and home garage mechanics paved the way. Little of that happens now but fortunately we are driving trucks which CAN be worked on under the nearest shade tree. And sometimes you need the biggest tree around to help pull the tranny after painstakingly pulling the hard top and getting everything rigged so the dog don't get crushed because you rigged the blocks wrong.

Simple careful planning, a bunch of elbow grease and patience and cleanliness when reassembling the engine will reap huge benefits. Without spending a bunch of $$. Can you buy a cheap used pull-out surplus engine? Yep. But you'd be miles ahead rebuilding it yourself. Don't be shy -- grab the torque wrench and sockets and get after it!

To all shade tree MV mechanics everywhere!

 

[TehTDK]

I thought the LDS was rated between 180 & 210 hp. Increasing output to 300 would only be in the 50% range. That shouldn't be too bad.

Sorry for quoting Nasty, but thats the actual post I want to question a bit about. First of all sorry if this is OT in any way what so ever.

But is it possible to tell via the engine plate etc whether an engine is the 180 or 210 HP LDS engine, and I assume we are still talking Forced Air Induction as well as multi fuel at these levels or?. From my point I just think its more so worth it to get a stock 180 or 210 HP engine, rather then trying to uprate a 120 or lower HP engine to the same spec. But is there any way to tell short of running it on a dyno?

 

[hornetfan]

Sorry for quoting Nasty, but thats the actual post I want to question a bit about. First of all sorry if this is OT in any way what so ever.

But is it possible to tell via the engine plate etc whether an engine is the 180 or 210 HP LDS engine, and I assume we are still talking Forced Air Induction as well as multi fuel at these levels or?. From my point I just think its more so worth it to get a stock 180 or 210 HP engine, rather then trying to uprate a 120 or lower HP engine to the same spec. But is there any way to tell short of running it on a dyno?

I thought one of these more knowledgeable guys would have answered this but I guess not. Rated HP is on the engine data plate riveted to the block. Not always legible and based on what I've learned (especially in this thread) not always trustworthy. All parts are interchangeable within the 465 family (somebody jump in and correct me if I'm wrong) and it seems that the repair depots used what was on hand. So unless you've got a factory-fresh engine the data plate could be in error.

cheers,
hornet

 

[TehTDK]

Thanks for that bit of info Hornet, I figured I might as well aim for one of the 180 or 210 engines off the bat other then getting a deuce with one of the "other" engines. What somewhat amuses me though is that the regular troop carrier trucks we employ here, has between 180-240 HP on straight diesel. I would prefer the 180 or 210 HP MultiFuel over that any time.

 

[patracy]

I thought one of these more knowledgeable guys would have answered this but I guess not. Rated HP is on the engine data plate riveted to the block. Not always legible and based on what I've learned (especially in this thread) not always trustworthy. All parts are interchangeable within the 465 family (somebody jump in and correct me if I'm wrong) and it seems that the repair depots used what was on hand. So unless you've got a factory-fresh engine the data plate could be in error.

cheers,
hornet

Sorry I haven't been in the thread recently.

Specs of all the multifuel engines:

LDS 427-2
427 ci,140hp and 350ft/lbs tq

LD 465-1
478 ci,125 hp and 305 ft/lbs tq

LDT 465-1C/1D
478 ci,130hp and 330 ft/lbs tq

LDS 465-1A
478ci,175hp and425 ft/lbs tq

LDS 465-2
478ci,195hp and 425 ft/lbs tq

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?100118-best-multi-fuel-engine

Edit:

Yes, parts from the engines will interchange. HOWEVER, there are a number of negligible differences between them. (Pistons, piston rings [3 vs 4], camshaft profiles, turbochargers, injection pumps, engine timing)

 

[sandcobra164]

I've read this thread from time to time. I'll toss in that I have a new in 92' Herc Multi in my truck. FDC bypassed, fuel turned up till it blows some smoke when slamming the throttle at idle but it clears up. I don't have a pyro yet. Anyhow, it struggles to pull a 14,000 pound load, think MK 14 trailer, and it's worse if it's towing a 5 ton truck behind it. We're talking 45 on flats when towing the MK 14, about 35 in 4th when towing a 5 ton. It'll bounce off the governor with the M105 connected or without. It's not a racecar and it has it's limitations. I'm pretty sure I turned my fuel up to LDS levels but that's about as far as I'm going. If I need to get somewhere sooner, I'll leave earlier.

To keep it relevant to HotRodding, I have considered getting a Turbo from a Cat C7 and I think I know where to find some. I know the exhaust manifold flange is the same, might have to rework the exhaust pipe. Who knows, maybe 12 pounds of boost from the current C turbo is not enough.

 

[hornetfan]

465 differences

I've read this thread from time to time. I'll toss in that I have a new in 92' Herc Multi in my truck. FDC bypassed, fuel turned up till it blows some smoke when slamming the throttle at idle but it clears up. I don't have a pyro yet. Anyhow, it struggles to pull a 14,000 pound load, think MK 14 trailer, and it's worse if it's towing a 5 ton truck behind it. We're talking 45 on flats when towing the MK 14, about 35 in 4th when towing a 5 ton. It'll bounce off the governor with the M105 connected or without. It's not a racecar and it has it's limitations. I'm pretty sure I turned my fuel up to LDS levels but that's about as far as I'm going. If I need to get somewhere sooner, I'll leave earlier.

To keep it relevant to HotRodding, I have considered getting a Turbo from a Cat C7 and I think I know where to find some. I know the exhaust manifold flange is the same, might have to rework the exhaust pipe. Who knows, maybe 12 pounds of boost from the current C turbo is not enough.

Patracy wrote, "Edit:

Yes, parts from the engines will interchange. HOWEVER, there are a number of negligible differences between them. (Pistons, piston rings [3 vs 4], camshaft profiles, turbochargers, injection pumps, engine timing)"

(I need to figure out to include multiple quotes from different posts <sigh>)

I think I remember from this thread that "rated boost" was on the order of 18 psi but that could be my faulty memory. And that MANY engines do NOT develop rated boost. Personally I think that having a boost gauge and pyrometer is a MUST if you're going for any substantial increase in HP/torque. You certainly can put enough fuel in these engines to melt pistons with the stock pumps. Be easy with increased boost, too. The MF is a relatively high compression engine at 22:1.

Patracy, I thought somebody posted that the camshafts were, in fact, the same all the way up to the 210hp LDS. Am I mistaken? I know the injection pumps are different with perhaps different internal timing but nobody has actually confirmed HOW they are different. Nor IP p/n's posted.

Sorry for the foggy memory guys -- just finished dinner so all the blood has been pulled out of my head LOL

 

[patracy]

To keep it relevant to HotRodding, I have considered getting a Turbo from a Cat C7 and I think I know where to find some. I know the exhaust manifold flange is the same, might have to rework the exhaust pipe. Who knows, maybe 12 pounds of boost from the current C turbo is not enough.

This is a broad comment, but increased boost does not equal increased performance.

I had to preach this time after time on another diesel performance site when people would brag about the fact they were getting 45+psi out of a HX35. After 35psi, you're just blowing "hot" (any time you compress air you generate heat. Turbos are only efficient in certain ranges.) air.

Also increasing boost pressure stresses the engine due to increased cylinder pressure. Seeing that we already have a problem with the head gaskets and bottom end, more boost wouldn't be the answer in this question.

Honestly it's impossible to tell when a C or D turbo "spools" in these trucks due to them being gear bound. The Schwitzer turbos measure at 60mm on the intake and 70mm on the exhaust. So the next step up would be something like a HX50 and up turbo. That'd put you in a 66/76 sized turbo. You'd probably feel it spool then with a hit on the mid/top end. These trucks are geared so low, that you probably wouldn't give up much on the bottom end.

 

[patracy]

Patracy wrote, "Edit:

Yes, parts from the engines will interchange. HOWEVER, there are a number of negligible differences between them. (Pistons, piston rings [3 vs 4], camshaft profiles, turbochargers, injection pumps, engine timing)"

(I need to figure out to include multiple quotes from different posts <sigh>)

I think I remember from this thread that "rated boost" was on the order of 18 psi but that could be my faulty memory. And that MANY engines do NOT develop rated boost. Personally I think that having a boost gauge and pyrometer is a MUST if you're going for any substantial increase in HP/torque. You certainly can put enough fuel in these engines to melt pistons with the stock pumps. Be easy with increased boost, too. The MF is a relatively high compression engine at 22:1.

Patracy, I thought somebody posted that the camshafts were, in fact, the same all the way up to the 210hp LDS. Am I mistaken? I know the injection pumps are different with perhaps different internal timing but nobody has actually confirmed HOW they are different. Nor IP p/n's posted.

Sorry for the foggy memory guys -- just finished dinner so all the blood has been pulled out of my head LOL

Use the "+ button in the lower right corner of posts to multi-quote, then hit the reply button.

There's no way I'd put 20psi of boost routinely to a LDT. Remember these are 22:1 CR engines. Personally I don't take mine over 14psi. 12psi is normal max.

I will have to search back though and try to find the thread, but there was mention that there are slightly different cam profiles, and as memory served different stock numbers for the cams.

As to the IP's, they are different. The fueling rates are different. (Not just the droop screw setting)

Part numbers for the various pumps per the TM.

Engine model Part Number Federal stock Pump code
LDS-465.2 11641907 2910.178-1185 A
LDS-465.lA 10951115 2910-908-6320 B
LD-465-1 10935264 2910-759.5410 C
LD-465-lC 10935264 2910-759-5410 D
LDT-465-lC 2910-116-8241 E
LDS-465-1 *10935498 2910-017-9778 F (early)
10951115 2910-908-6320 F (late)
LDS-427-2 7748899 2910-860-2333 G (early)
10935295 2910-968-6317 G (late)
* 11640900 G (rebuild)

I also failed to mention there was injector differences as well. (1 orifice vs 2 orifice)

 

[patracy]

Well crap, that didn't post the grid nicely. So here's a image of it:

 

[hornetfan]

This is a broad comment, but increased boost does not equal increased performance.

I had to preach this time after time on another diesel performance site when people would brag about the fact they were getting 45+psi out of a HX35. After 35psi, you're just blowing "hot" (any time you compress air you generate heat. Turbos are only efficient in certain ranges.) air.

Also increasing boost pressure stresses the engine due to increased cylinder pressure. Seeing that we already have a problem with the head gaskets and bottom end, more boost wouldn't be the answer in this question.

Honestly it's impossible to tell when a C or D turbo "spools" in these trucks due to them being gear bound. The Schwitzer turbos measure at 60mm on the intake and 70mm on the exhaust. So the next step up would be something like a HX50 and up turbo. That'd put you in a 66/76 sized turbo. You'd probably feel it spool then with a hit on the mid/top end. These trucks are geared so low, that you probably wouldn't give up much on the bottom end.

I'll certainly second Patracy's comment about raw boost numbers. COOL air will certainly result in better overall performance than just cranking up the boost and avoids turbo-lag issues with a larger turbo. A larger turbo will also lose bottom end and if you're looking for increased power because you've fitted larger tires you may not be happy with the results. Developing higher boost and a cooler, denser air charge at lower rpms will enhance acceleration when you have heavy loads or large tires but it may make little difference at the top because the 465 is rpm limited from bottom end strength. Everything is a tradeoff one way or another. Ultimately the tradeoffs break the engine.

An intercooler would be a nice addition and, I believe, would also help the hypercycle function better with light fuels such as gasoline.

 

[bill2444]

I'm jumping in late here, but is the air filter housing and inlet piping restrictive? I know the vacum gauge for the filter condition says no restriction when running and filter looks good. The short of it is that I am in the process of getting ready to pull my ldt due to bottom end noise. I removed the hood, grill guard and air filter housing and air inlet housing. Then it came time to pull it in the barn for the rest of the work. But I could not help to take the motor for one last spin thru the back field ( one of those evil impulses) And it really moved out!!! She was spinning 360's in the 18" deep snow pulling third gear in high. It always had good power, but it really seemed to come alive during that last romp.
Possibly due to no air inlet restriction? or the loss of weight from hood and parts
I was toying around with the idea of retrofitting an air filter hoousing from an A-3 for looks, are they rated for higher cfm over the multi's?

 

[Heath_h49008]

There has been speculation about the M35 air filter flow ratings as opposed to the 5 ton filter and the impact on the output.

How dirty was the filter, and how much have you turned it up?

 

[JasonS]

Seeing that we already have a problem with the head gaskets and bottom end, more boost wouldn't be the answer in this question.

I don't think evidence supports the bottom end being overstressed. The bottom end failures seem to be more due to bolt fatigue than bearing fatigue. Has anyon blown out one of the newer (Victor 5818 ) head gaskets ?

 

[JasonS]

The commercial version of the MF is rated up to 228 HP: http://herculesengine.com/d4800.htm

 

[Heath_h49008]

I think we were also seeing more issues on rebuilds throwing rods than non-rebuilt engines.

I thought someone was going to do a rod bolt failure analysis?

 

[Heath_h49008]

Pleasure reading...

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?6731-Pulling-tractor-with-a-deuce-engine

 

[bill2444]

The air filter "looks good" which means little of nothing, but the original equipment filter condition(vacum guage) indicated it was in like new condition. Although I doubt those were ever ment to accuratley measure flow restriction, rather more of a reference.

 

[bill2444]

Oh, and far as the pump being tuned up. I've had it turned up and down for "special occasions" so much that it is hard to say with any accuracy just how much total it is from stock setting. It is up from the depot setting though, but not by a gross amount during that last ride.