Oil filter cans that retain oil?

[Jeepsinker]

Ok, so if I were to mess with the other bypass valves I would damage something. Regulator only it is. Of course the oil filter bypass could be modified after a spin on conversion and some good quality filters. More oil would get filtered that way without bypassing. The cooler valve I'm going to leave alone though.

 

[JasonS]

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The TM is correct when it says the relief valve is set to "start to open" at 40 PSI . If you study the diagram closely you will see the oil comes from the pump at over 100 PSI, then goes to the oil filters where the bypass valve allows pressure over 15 PSI to "Bypass" the filters thus keeping the filters from blowing up. This bypass pressure is still over 100 PSI. Then it goes to the oil cooler where again it bypasses at 15 PSI keeping the oil cooler from blowing up. This bypassed pressure is still over 100 PSI. Then it goes to the two pressure regulators, one which controls piston cooling and the other which controls main galley pressure. The piston cooling regulator ONLY allows 15 PSI to reach the nozzles. It does not dump pressure. The Main oil pressure regulator which controls main galley pressure lowers the pressure to 40 PSI "Dumping" the rest of the pressure to the oil pan. This is the regulator which can be bumped up to control the main galley pressure. The diagram shows what I have described. The second diagram show where the pressure tap is. Tomorrow I will take some pictures of my mechanical pressure gauge hocked up to this port, and hopefully you will see what I have been trying to explain all along.
One of the draw backs of our oil system is that all the oil does "not" get filtered before going to the main galley unlike modern engines. Almost all engines from the 1950's back used this type of oil filtration system. If you plugged the oil filter bypass valve then you would get full oil filtration, but the old style paper filter elements can not take that kind of pressure, but since I have spin-on filters maybe they can handle over 100 PSI pressure ? Maybe I'll call "WIX" filters and find out. I would still keep the oil cooler bypass though.

The piston nozzle regulator regulator opens at a main oil galley pressure above 15 psi providing oil to the squirters. This is so you you don't have an unnecessary "leak" at idle and have plenty of oil for the bearings at idle. Take a closer look at the diagram at which way the valve is oriented.
The 15 psi DIFFERENTIAL relief valve keeps cold, viscous oil from ripping the paper element out of the oil filter. The main, 40 psi oil galley relief valve keeps the oil filter cans from blowing up. Likewise, the oil cooler has a 15 psi differential valve to limit pressure drop across the cooler to 15 psi so that you can still get sufficient flow to the rest of the engine.

ALL oil is filtered before going to the main oil galley, engine bearings, etc UNLESS you are exceeding the flow rating of the filter; opening the bypass valve. Compare the flow rating of the spin on filters to the oil pump capacity. The spin on filters have sufficient capacity for this engine. ALL competently designed engines have an oil filter bypass valve as it is correct engineering. It will either be in the oil filter (Ford) or in the block (GM). Read up in any oil filter manufacturer books (Wix is one), they will also remind the user of this being necessary. There is NO reason to remove this valve. You will shed paper and clog your squirters.

 

[Jeepsinker]

I have no intention of eliminating any of the bypasses. I think I'll just shim the oil filter bypass to bump up the flow through the filters AFTER I do a spin on conversion. I know the bypasses are there for a good reason.

 

[JasonS]

I have no intention of eliminating any of the bypasses. I think I'll just shim the oil filter bypass to bump up the flow through the filters AFTER I do a spin on conversion. I know the bypasses are there for a good reason.

Why do you think that there is any reason to do this? Bjorn did a test a number of years ago and the pressure drop across the filters was way below 15 psi (ie. all oil was being filtered). The filters are correctly sized for this engine.

 

[JasonS]

To put some numbers behind this:

The spin on filter, Wix 51458 has a maximum flow rating of 11-13 GPM. There are two parallel filters on the multifuel so the filter flow capability is doubled to 22-26 GPM. Multifuel engines (ignoring the LDS-2 which is rare) have an oil pump capacity of 20 gpm at 2600 rpm. So, even if you are operating at 2600 rpm, the filters meet this requirement. There is no need to mess with anything.

 

[Jeepsinker]

Ok, alright. I was reading that as only 15 psi was allowed across the filters and anything over that was bypassed. Thanks for explaining that, that helps a lot.

 

[rustystud]

The piston nozzle regulator regulator opens at a main oil galley pressure above 15 psi providing oil to the squirters. This is so you you don't have an unnecessary "leak" at idle and have plenty of oil for the bearings at idle. Take a closer look at the diagram at which way the valve is oriented.
The 15 psi DIFFERENTIAL relief valve keeps cold, viscous oil from ripping the paper element out of the oil filter. The main, 40 psi oil galley relief valve keeps the oil filter cans from blowing up. Likewise, the oil cooler has a 15 psi differential valve to limit pressure drop across the cooler to 15 psi so that you can still get sufficient flow to the rest of the engine.

ALL oil is filtered before going to the main oil galley, engine bearings, etc UNLESS you are exceeding the flow rating of the filter; opening the bypass valve. Compare the flow rating of the spin on filters to the oil pump capacity. The spin on filters have sufficient capacity for this engine. ALL competently designed engines have an oil filter bypass valve as it is correct engineering. It will either be in the oil filter (Ford) or in the block (GM). Read up in any oil filter manufacturer books (Wix is one), they will also remind the user of this being necessary. There is NO reason to remove this valve. You will shed paper and clog your squirters.

After further testing I found out the Multiful engine is indeed a full oil filtration engine. I had wrongly ASSumed that all the relief valves dumped into the oil pan.
Sorry Jason for my rant.
I have edited my post to reflect this.
The main reason though for all this in the first place still remains though. The main galley oil pressure regulator can (and I feel should) be adjusted up to maintain a proper oil pressure in the engine. There is ample evidence of inadequate oil pressure in our engines. Rods coming apart, cams breaking due to bushing wear, and cranks breaking.


The second picture shows engine pressure at idle (750 RPM's) .
The third picture shows where the test port is with my mechanical gauge installed.
The fourth picture shows the location of the oil filter bypass.
The fifth picture shows the location of the oil cooler bypass.

 

[gimpyrobb]

SO I was looking at the path the oil flows, does it flow from in the center of the filters out?

 

[oddshot]

SO I was looking at the path the oil flows, does it flow from in the center of the filters out?

No. It flows from the outside of the filter in to the center.

 

[JasonS]

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Jason, it is evident you are not familiar with older engine design. They did NOT have complete oil filtration until the mid to late 1950's . My 1954 Chevy Truck is a prime example. Look it up before making such broad statements. I'm posting pictures of what the oil pressure is AT the filter housing. The filters are NOT getting the full 100 PSI. I have studied the valving in the regulator diagrams and I have made actual tests. If the filters where designed for full filtration then the oil bypass pressure would NOT be 15 PSI but something in the order of 40 PSI to 50 PSI like a modern engine. Again look it up. The purpose of a bypass is to prevent over pressure of the filters when they become clogged. NO modern engine has there bypass pressure set at 15 PSI. If it was true that the main pressure was to keep the filters from blowing up, then how do you explain the 100 PSI at the filter housing ? According to you it would be 40 PSI. Before you start to "lambast me" again, please provide proof like I am right now.
The first picture shows the pressure before engine start-up.
The second picture shows engine pressure at idle (750 RPM's) .
The third picture shows where the test port is with my mechanical gauge installed.
The fourth picture shows the location of the oil filter bypass.
The fifth picture shows the location of the oil cooler bypass.

You wrote: "Jason, it is evident you are not familiar with older engine design."

I have owned about a half dozen 270 & 302 gmcs and am well familiar with the block and oil galley modifications necessary to convert them to full flow oil filtration. I have converted two Reo OA331 from bypass to full flow filtration.

You wrote: "They did NOT have complete oil filtration until the mid to late 1950's."

Winslow developed them in the 1930s and installed them in Hall Scott engines. Waukesha and other industrial engines used them later on. Chrysler had them in 1946 (look this up in the GMC Speed Manual published by Bill Fisher in 1955).

You wrote: "If the filters where designed for full filtration then the oil bypass pressure would NOT be 15 PSI but something in the order of 40 PSI to 50 PSI like a modern engine."

Not sure if you are trying to state the multi doesn't have full flow filtration but if so you are completely wrong. If not, my apologizes for the misinterpretation. However, TM 9-2815-204-35 states "Pressurized oil is forced through the filters BEFORE entering the oil cooler and engine lubricating system.... ...The bypass valve opens at a differential pressjure of 15psi." This is the definition of full flow oil filtration.

Look at the oiling diagram for the multi and compare it to a modern cummins engine. http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/cummins_system_diagrams.html With the exception that the cooler and filter are switched around, they are they are virtually identical. The multi has a modern full flow oiling system!

You wrote: "NO modern engine has there bypass pressure set at 15 PSI. ...the oil bypass pressure would NOT be 15 PSI but something in the order of 40 PSI to 50 PSI like a modern engine. Again look it up."

You can find this statement in the 2004 NAPA/ Wix catalog: "Typically, engine manufacturers design bypass valves to open at a pressure differential of approximately 10 to 30 psid" This is the valve which keeps the center tube from collapsing due to excessive differential pressure. Look up a typical Ford or Chrysler engine oil filter which will be on the lower range of this. It is the oil galley relief valve that is set to the higher pressure. This is the valve which keeps the filter cans from ballooning. This is also stated in the Wix catalog.

You wrote: "then how do you explain the 100 PSI at the filter housing"

Cold oil. This is not a differential pressure measurement. It is a measurement of the oil galley pressure ("common mode" in electrical terms). If you want to measure the differential pressure, you either need a differential gauge or two gauges and then manually calculate the difference.

I am not trying to lambast you.

 

[JasonS]

Rusty, I reread some of your previous posts and you did claim that the multi does NOT have full flow oil filtration. I am not going to have any way to PROVE that the multi has full flow oil filtration. Honestly, I am at a bit of a loss how to otherwise validate what should be readily obvious from looking at the oiling diagrams and TM verbiage. I am sure that you have looked at the bypass filter housing in your 1954 chevy and noticed the tiny oil lines and tiny oil restriction orifice in the center pipe. Compare that to the numerous large holes in the center pipe of the multi full flow hardware and the TWO filters. It should be obvious by inspection that they are not the same type of oiling system. Please PM me to take this discussion off line.

 

[rustystud]

View attachment Scan0024.pdfThe Chevy engines you are referring too are the modern V-8 . The engines I'm referring too are the 1940's to 1950"s engines like my Chevy 235 cid 6 cylinder. The industry standard for full oil filtration did not happen until the late 1950's to early 1960's . Yes there where exceptions along the way. Just like brake standards in 1967, which stated you had to have dual brake systems in all American automobiles. Chrysler had gone to that years before.
This engine though after checking the pressures today was a full oil filtration engine. The 15 PSI pressure differential was to prevent filter collapse just like you said Jason. My statements about the pressures was correct though. The oil pressure regulator under the turbo controls the main galley pressure to a 45PSI maximum pressure.
I was wrong about the pressure relief idea though. I see now that the relief valves do NOT dump back into the oil pan as I thought they did. Only the main pressure relief valve does that (and the oil pump relief valve) . But the filter housing and cooler have main oil pump pressure ( around 100 PSI ) . The time the gauge was reading 100 PSI, the main galley pressure was reading 30 PSI. So if we bump up the oil pressure regulator, we will get more main galley pressure which is better for the bearings in the long run.

 

[oddshot]

If the topic of this thread is “How to come up with a way to stop oil draining back into the crankcase when the engine is turned off” ... here are some pictures I think will help. (Those following along at home may want to get a look at TM 9-2815-210-34-2-1, pages 3-41 & 3-59.)


This is the Oil Cooler and Oil Filter Housing, and, I think this is the place where a one way valve would need to be placed to stop oil draining back into the crankcase when the engine is turned off.


Oil from the oil pump passes through the engine block and enters the Oil Cooler and Oil Cooler Housing (OCOFH) through the 13/16” hole located on the back of the OCOFH toward the front of the engine. The oil enters the OCOFH and begins to fill the filter canisters beginning with the very deep “wells” cast into rear portion of the casting. Look carefully at the 4th picture and you will see the feed hole through which oil passes to enter the OCOFH at the rear of the forward filter canister.


Incoming oil fills the canisters and passes through the outside of the paper filter elements into the center of the filter element. In time, (a LONG time if you are an engine bearing and the starter is turning), the oil level reaches one of the two holes of the filters' center post. When the oil reaches a sufficient level, it flows through the hole down the inside of the center post, back into the casting of the OCOFH, through the oil cooler and finally through the 13/16” hole in the back of the casting toward the rear of the engine block. From there it enters the engine block, flows through a passageway running left to right through the block, to the oil pressure regulator assembly.


A one way valve installed into the first (front) hole of the Oil Cooler and Oil Filter Housing would be the most logical place to stop the flow of oil back into the crankcase when the engine is turned off.


This iron casting has a lot of meat on it for drilling and machining and etc. That being said, the biggest problem I see is making certain that the valve does in no way diminish the flow rate of oil into this assembly. To me, this means that the internal diameter of any proposed one-way valve has to be 13/16” MINIMUM.


BTW ... This oil cooler and oil filter housing comes from Andy3's engine that broke its camshaft. Its the little engine that keeps on giving. Thanks Andy.

 

[oddshot]

No. Drilling a another hole toward the lower portion of the center post in the filter assemblies will not help build oil pressure faster during starting. The filters have to be filled before you can make oil PRESSURE. A quick test would be to remove one of the filters, start the engine and watch the OP guage to see how fast oil pressure builds. (Hint: it ain't gonna)

 

[oddshot]

More pictures of the Oil Cooler and Oil Cooler Housing. The bend at the front of the filter housing where the oil enters it might be something to consider.

There are 2 by-pass valves in the housing. One is there in case of plugged oil filters, the other is in the instance of a plugged oil cooler.

I've included a picture of the bottom of the filter housing. IF somebody could come up with a one-way valve that would prevent the drain-back of the oil filters, a petcock valve installed in the bottom of the filter housing would allow the draining of the filters and filter housing to prevent a mess during filter changes.

 

[rustystud]

Jason I need to make a public apology to you. I was rude and did not take into consideration what you where trying to say. In my defense, my house has been in turmoil for the last week due to a medical emergency. I have only gotten 3 hrs of sleep nightly. Last night I did get 4 hrs. My brain is like fried toast right now and I could not see what you have been trying to say.

Oddshot, I like what you have found out. There are many one-way check valves for hydraulic fluid that I think can be retrofitted to work on our application.

 

[oddshot]

Oddshot, I like what you have found out. There are many one-way check valves for hydraulic fluid that I think can be retrofitted to work on our application.

Always to help out. ESPECIALLY if there's a chance this can be done. I appreciate any knowledge about hydraulic fittings you can bring to the table.

This won't be a real easy job to do ... its a bit of wrench-turning to get this thing off. Not complicated ... just a bit of work. But the pay off will be huge. It will be well worth the time and expense to me if I don't have to design and build a pre-luber.

 

[gimpyrobb]

I have one sitting here off the truck. If it would help, I can send it out.

 

[rustystud]

I have one sitting here off the truck. If it would help, I can send it out.

Are you talking about an hydraulic valve or filter housing ?

 

[rustystud]

Always to help out. ESPECIALLY if there's a chance this can be done. I appreciate any knowledge about hydraulic fittings you can bring to the table.

This won't be a real easy job to do ... its a bit of wrench-turning to get this thing off. Not complicated ... just a bit of work. But the pay off will be huge. It will be well worth the time and expense to me if I don't have to design and build a pre-luber.

I have some good friends at the "Parker" supply house who I know can help.