optimizer long block - hummer 24V or cucv 24v

[NDT]

Sweet! No surprise that GEP parts did not know about the vendor change on the blocks. Parts is way down on the manufacturing food chain. I'm in assembly and even then purchasing forgets to tell us they switched vendors. We usually find out when the line goes down because something no longer fits!

 

[richingalveston]

working on putting my ARP head studs in new motor. trying to figure out what torque spec to use. The arp package says torque to 90 lbs but also says to check vehicle specs. per the 6.2 cucv. is 50 lbs plus 1/4 turn. I have gep 6.5 optimizer and no torque specs for it.

I think I should torque them to the 90 lbs but any one know for sure.

Rich

 

[gimpyrobb]

I know I'm late to the thread, all the 506 Navistar blocks have a dot matrix style print in the intake valley. I'm betting your block with the solid lines is the latest and greatest.

 

[richingalveston]

check the optimizer thread. the one with the good article. I added to it. yes it is latest and greatest from Dalton forge. GEP no longer using Navastar. I am still waiting on the Dalton date code info. when I get it, I will add it to the optimizer thread.

any one have any info on what I should torque the ARP studs to please chime in. I guess if they go to 90, why not. 5o plus a quarter turn has to be 70+ I would think.

Rich

 

[richingalveston]

gep optimizer with some extras

I have been working on the motor. first thing was a paint job. I did not splurge, I bought duplicolor high temp engine paint, two cans and two cans of spray prep. I washed it with the spray prep and then painted it. covering all the holes. I think It was $25 in paint supplies. The paint it came with was pretty thin. It was painted prior to machining so there is a lot of raw metal. Where the gaskets are fitted I will clean paint from the areas under the gaskets.

I changed the head bolts to the ARP head studs. The ones I removed had very little thread sealant on the threads. The caps had the read sealant but almost nothing on the threads.

I also had to purchase some oil additive to soak the rockers overnight. not sure why but it is in the directions. It says the zinc additive is good for these motors and should be added to every oil change.
I would like to hear other opinions on this. I am soaking the rockers and plan to use what I have already purchased in the first oil change. I hope to have more info before I put it in the second.

I also included a pick of the Dalton forge mark that is in the heads. Same as on the block. Is located on one end of each head.

more to come,
Rich

 

[Barrman]

Oil cooler lines and turbo oil supply.

All of the GEP engines and I think 1997 and up GM blocks had 1/2" NPT oil cooler line fittings in the block compared to the 3/8" NPT all 6.2 and early 6.5 engines had. I was caught unaware when I went to add a cooler for test firing my GEP engine a few months ago and forgot to mention it. I figure you will come across that soon enough and wanted to give some warning. Leroy calls it the HD oil pump when looking on his website for -10 an oil cooler lines, fittings and his cooler.

The 6.2 has a 1/4" NPT oil port above the oil cooler lines above the filter. That is where the Banks turbo kit says to pull oil for the turbo from. That port is a 3/8" NPT on the GEP engine. Another case of being caught unaware for me.

The GEP and most 6.5 GM blocks also have a 1/4" NPT oil port on the front deck of the engine. I had the oil supply for the turbo coming from the port above the oil filter. But, didn't like a 5 foot braided hose laying over half the engine. A 2 foot braided steel line is just about perfect to go from the front port. -4an.

I found a 2 foot line on ebay for less than $20 to my door.


Other than that, pretty much everything 6.2 has bolted up directly to the GEP 6500. I will let you know if I find more differences. Well, I guess "bolted up" is a bad way of saying the parts line up but the bolts have to be metric instead of standard. Motor mounts and transmission mounting bolts specifically.

 

[richingalveston]

Thanks for the heads up.
I knew the sizes were different but I have not gotten that far.
I have looked at the oil cooler kit and will probably go that route. this way you get larger lines to and from the coolers.
I have to see if Leroy's cooler will fit with my tranny and hydroboost cooler. I still plan to use the trans cooler sections also for oil and trans so things don't run to cool in winter.

I just finished painting the motor, got the timing gears installed and working on the heads. I put the Arp head studs in and sealed the bottom threads real good but not sure what to do with the top. it is a washer and nut and not a capped bolt so I have not installed the rockers until I am sure I don't need to seal the top threads. The ARP directions just say to use the tread lube on the top so that they torque properly nothing about a thread seal on top.

I also have to purchase a new IP for this motor not going to get a credit for my 6.2 and don't want to send it back as a core, it is a new rebuild so I am probably just going to purchase the core with new ip and keep this one for sale with the 6.2 motor. I think the only thing I will be reusing on the 6.2 is the water pump plate and the fuel injection lines and the intake and cross over.

I am still on the fence about getting the dual thermostat set up. I may see how it goes without it so I don't have to do anything to the throttle cable brackets.

And yes I figured out the change to metric when trying to bolt it to the engine stand. I had to go to three different places for long enough grade 10.9. They ended up having them a lowes.

We need to see if we can get this tread re-titled To the "Optimizer 6500 build thread" it may help other in searches later.

Rich

 

[gimpyrobb]

The dual stat doesn't work well if using a DB2 pump from what I've read and been told.

 

[NVRENUFF]

Looking forward to following this thread to see how the final outcome works out. Do you have the complete turbo kit for the 6.2?

 

[richingalveston]

yes, I have the 6.2 banks turbo, manifold, air cleaner box and intake hat and intake tube plus the oil lines. Only thing missing is the cross over and I have some parts to that.

I am going to use the manifold air cleaner and intake hat on the 6.5 I have for sale just the turbo and other spare parts. The manifold can be purchased on the auction sites for less than $400.
I am not sure what I am going to do at this time, considering putting the 6.2 back together with turbo and selling as a unit. Or just putting the 6.2 together and selling it separate from turbo parts. The only thing I know right now is I really don't want to put any more time or money into the 6.2 and thus leaning toward selling things separately.

My 6.2 has new injectors, new rebuilt IP, new water pump, new glow plugs - I plan to keep the injector lines, water pump backing plate and intake and cross over for the 6.5

I will be posting an add for the parts for sale soon. I need to get rid of it, don't have room to store it and I would like to see someone get good use out of it.

From what I have found out, the dual thermostat has about 50/50 good reviews to bad and going to the dual thermostat with the DB2 pump, you loose the mounting points for the throttle assymbly so you have to do some fab work to overcome this problem. It is an item easily changed later if I decide I need it so I plan to run with the 6.2 cross over and see if I have cooling issues.

Rich

 

[richingalveston]

I am still collecting parts, I now need the water pump. I cannot find a high output non serpentine water pump for sale.

I Plan to use the 6.2 cross over and will work out the hose size difference if I can find the HO water pump. All of the searching reveals the CCW pump for the serpentine system and not the cw pump for the non serpentine system.

Some research shows that the larger bypass on the water pump is actually not good. It allows more circulation of the hot water and not water from the radiator. Leroy diesel sells a reducer kit. The theory is that when the t-stat is open more water flows through the radiator and you get cooler water to the engine instead of recirculating hot water.

supposedly the bypass reducer has helped some cooling problems. if I keep the 6.2 smaller bypass, It will do the same as having the bypass restricted.

The water pump is my last item needed to finish the motor. I just received IP and injectors and the fuel lines oil cooler, turbo and a few other parts should be here at the end of the week.

any info helps.

Thanks
Rich

 

[Barrman]

Here is a picture of the GEP pump with light rust as removed from my engine in front of a new HD serpentine pump.

 

[richingalveston]

been a while since i updated. I had a problem that is almost resolved so I can get back to building the motor. I installed the roller rockers and when putting the valve cover back on, one of the bolt holes blew out of the head. Upon instpection it appears to be bad machining, the hole was not deep enough and not tapped far enough. The end of the bolt is into the last threads where the diameter of the tap actually shrinks.


One thing i found out is GEP does not warranty anything on a long block not even a bad cast or machining. Once you receive it, it is yours.

attached are some pictures, I installed everything right, did not over torque anything.

At this time the head is being repaired by Mosely Machine in Houston. They are fixing it for less than $200. They showed me a few things when i got there and it looks like they do great work. They will heat the head up to over 200 degrees and keep it heated while the build up new metal by welding. They then grind that back and re-drill and tap the hole.

I saved the chip but they did not need it, they start from scratch.

so far, i do not believe the Dalton machining is as good as the navastar, only time will tell if the motor holds up as good.

I should have the head back in a week and then I can get it put together.

Rich

 

[gimpyrobb]

So who sold you the motor? That is a bunch of BULLSH1T as far as I'm concerned. I don't know what you paid for the motor, but for some of the prices I've seen, I'd be out for blood if they told me to "go pound sand"!

 

[richingalveston]

It is a Leroy diesel gep. yes I paid a ton for it. and yes I am pissed off.

I have received legal advice about it and I do have a case if I wish to pursue it. The case I have is that I ordered a Navistar and got a Dalton without notice.
with regards to the bad machining, it is a hard case to prove. I have talked with several experts. some who are expert machinist and have actually been involved in many lawsuits. It is 50/50 getting them on the bad machining.

If I have any more problems with it, I can still go after them on the bait and switch. so far the machining is not Navistar quality, only time will tell if the cast is Navistar quality.

The bottom line is that it will cost me more to take them to court than what I paid for the motor. It will take 2 to 3 years and it is only a 50/50 chance I get my money and laywer fees back.

Thus for a $200 repair, I have to live with it and be the test subject a little longer. I may not have any more issues but then again I might. I guess that is a 50/50 chance also.

I do not recommend anyone buying a new GEP until they have some history with the Dalton block. It may be better or worse. If I were told up front, I would have spent the extra money and got a P400. apparently they have about 1000 navastar p400 still available before they are all Dalton cast.

I pose pics of he repair from the machine shop. If it works, I have a 6bt with the same problem on one of the exhaust manifold bolts. it will be getting pulled and fixed this summer.

just giving all here a heads up who are thinking of buying a new GEP motor. probably best to buy someone's rebuilt Navistar at this time or get one yourself and rebuild it. I wish I had done that now because of the time I have spent on this, I could have one rebuilt and in the truck by now.

Rich

 

[gimpyrobb]

So GEP(general engine products) is now subbing thier work out to Dalton? If thats the case, you might not have any ground to stand on (if its still badged GEP). I hope this is the only hurdle for you.

 

[richingalveston]

yes, GEP switched from Navistar to Dalton, No information any where on this switch. Thus my distributor Leroy diesel did not know and sold me a Navistar. It was in my barn before I could find out it was a Dalton.

yes, my only real case is about the switch. It is no secret that the engine was know for the Navistar cast and thus if I wish to pursue it, I could probably get my money back.

I just want to get my truck on the road so I am stuck with this. all I can do is hope it turns out ok. if the motor fails or has any other issues, I will be pulling it out and getting a lawyer.

everyone beware of the Dalton until it proves otherwise

Rich

 

[Barrman]

I'm glad you are getting this going again after all the unexpected troubles Rich.

That is neat how they are going to just build a new part instead of welding the old part back on.

 

[richingalveston]

Things have been on hold with the new motor because I ran into to some trouble with it. When putting the valve cover back on, I had a bolt hole blow out. The threads were not deep enough. They would not warranty it. considered all the options from getting a Lawyer, gun, or new head. I found a shop that still works on heads and was able to fix mine. I have it back, and most of the parts needed, I hope to have the motor put back together over the next month.

Attached are some pics of the head. The machine shop welded an insert into the head. They charged $165.00. much cheaper than the Lawyer and the new head, maybe not the gun.

Rich

 

[richingalveston]

still working on the motor. ended up with the wrong water pump. I ordered from rock auto and they sent me the ccw and not the clock wise rotational pump.

I am reconsidering the serpentine system since I now have the water pump.
I have located a 6.5 motor I can get all the parts from but it does not have the second alt. option.


I am looking for anyone that has the brackets for the second alt in the serpentine system for the 6.5 motor for sale, send me a pm if you are looking to sell.

I am also considering putting the AC compressor on now while I am working on the belt system so the compressor will be there when I am ready to tackle that part.

With regards to the AC compressor, should I use the standard gm compressor that came on the 6.5 trucks or is there a better unit. What I may do with the AC is put the small classic air system under the dash and a second unit in the rear top. I have the rear AC unit from a suburban and I am considering installing it like the rear air of a suburban.

I am getting busy with work so I have time to find parts. looks like I might have it back on the road by the end of the year.

Rich