Overturned HMMWV in NJ, stay safe folks

[saddamsnightmare]

April 16th, 2016.


Wow! Now one sees why the HMMWV is not a particularly safe vehicle on the highway. It IS time to fit them with a heavy duty ROPS system, and possibly then scrap them out upon retirement. We are seeing a great similarity to the original Ford M151 1/4 ton utility truck, which had similar propensities and weaknesses. At least when my M422A1 threw a wheel (front right), it did nothing like that due to the better design of its suspension system.

It is sad that we expect our GI's stateside to face unnecessary dangers like this even before they get to the combat zone. I figured something was going on last weekend as there were many military convoys going east on I-70 in Indiana, Ohio, W.Va. and PA. Something must be building up, wonder what?

 

[Predator42]

Hmmwv wheel falls off 4 injured

I would love to know what other Hmmwv owners are thinking about this latest situation. http://youtu.be/MZ5RmrCgyLU Do you think it could have been prevented with proper checks or is this just waiting to happen to anyone going at 50+ mph? I've got family and kids and can't take risks like this if failure is inevitable. I check mine daily, but short of pulling off each wheel every time before I drive it to check the hubs I'm not sure what preventative action I can take. Or is this one of those "that rarely if ever happens" "lightening strike" situations? I would think the H1 is subject to the same risks.

 

[Artisan]

Just because a news reporter suggests a witness says the tire fell
off does not make it true. It is the right front tire, the guardrail
prior to the crash is mangled, it is possible they hit the rail
then the wheel came off.

There will be tell tale evidence in the roadway "if" the wheel
parted prior to crash. If true it will be a big story soon, IMO.

Even if the wheel parted, IMO, this is one of those
"that rarely if ever happens" "lightening strike" situations...

I can not picture those exact parts in my mind, if worried
get anew, magna-flux the new parts prior and swap them in.
(But wait for the official report)

PS, ROPS (and seat belts) are always a VERY good idea.

 

[gimpyrobb]

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?152937-Overturned-HMMWV-in-NJ-stay-safe-folks

 

[CARNAC]

There is also the hypothetical possibility of a counterfeit part entering the system or it even could have been a OEM that wasn't to standard. It happens.

 

[John S-B]

More video footage from ABC 7 News:

https://youtu.be/10LX6Unz3JA

I'm pretty CERTAIN that Paramedics DID NOT amputate the leg of that soldier, that is NOT in their scope of practice. I don't see any armor, I can't imagine that it all just came off that easily either.

 

[NDT]

What is completely apparent is that the windshield, which is supposed to support the vehicle in a rollover, failed miserably in this accident. The B pillar did not fail thankfully.

 

[tim292stro]

A 1.5" square tube is not "ROPS" stuctural. This was not an up armored HMMWV from the pictures, it was a soft-top with soft doors. This truck's roof did as well as I expect a convertible's roof and windshield to do in a roll-over.

 

[tage]

A 1.5" square tube is not "ROPS" stuctural. This was not an up armored HMMWV from the pictures, it was a soft-top with soft doors. This truck's roof did as well as I expect a convertible's roof and windshield to do in a roll-over.

At speed that is as well...
Here's one from the first round of GP's rolling stock...

 

[tim292stro]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrsQIKlcbsM

This video shows the difference between the roll-over capabilities of all variants of armoring from soft-top/doors to fully up armored.

 

[dilvoy]

That video was made by someone wanting to sell their super duper roof system. It shows a Humvee with a civilian four man hard top improperly installed. Actually it is half assed into place. The windshield is a soft top windshield, the b pillar is a soft top b pillar and the c pillar is a soft top pillar. Then there is the almost no attachments of the hard top, except some sort of latches that were probably designed to slip from the windshield frame and make things dramatic. Fear is how you control people and this roll over video looks scary. Keep posting it as if it is the truth and you may make some money or just keep posting it because you are ignorant.

 

[tim292stro]

I'll admit this thread is drifting quite a bit from the topic so this is my final post to the thread until more actual information about the original accident comes in - the post-mortem stills at the end of the video (which I posted to simply illustrate the difference between a roof structure and an real ROPS structure) show that the a-pillar sheared off below the windshield (circled in red below), I'm not sure how you convince aluminum to do a hack job on being metal... and it looks like the whole dashboard came with the windshield (ripped off the firewall).

As it happens my comment about what a convertible looks like after a roll-over or even a consumer SUV looks like stands on its own - I have seen roofs caved in and ripped off vehicles the same way in traffic collisions when coming into contact with a stiffer object (trailer floor, guard rail, the ground, etc). The key point is "roof structure" does not equal "frame-attached ROPS", and if the posters in this thread who are really worried about getting crushed in their M998's during a roll-over want to do something actionable about the structural deficiencies in the design of a soft top or un-armored hard-top without a turret - then building a ROPS is what they should be looking into.

Please don't confuse fear and caution, fear is what you have when there are no expectations for any outcome, caution is what you earn from experience (often the painful/expensive kind) when you can honestly begin to quantify risk. I have no financial stake in the DoD video published to Youtube by a former Marine Combat Reporter from his own collection, I'm not offering ROPS as a product or service - so I don't even know where that came from, and I'll ignore the last four words of that post since you don't know me. Let's keep this civil instead. Remember some people got really hurt as a result of the vehicle's under-performance in a roll-over accident.

 

[o1951]

Thank you for the video, tim292stro.
Most people who do serious off-roading are well aware of the need for additional ROPS on most stock vehicles, civy or mil.

This serves as a vivid reminder to folks new to the sport. Obviously, the ROPS needed to protect the occupants of a vehicle that rolls at a crawl are an order of magnitude different than a 45 MPH rollover.

 

[Retiredwarhorses]

I'm not quite sure what kind of protection anyone thinks would be provided by the A, B and C pillar of a rag top M998.
the strongest point is the B-pillar...the Windshiled frame is held in place with 5 pins on aluminum leaf hinges, and forget about the C-pillar....that's just to hold up the rear of the rag top.
Based off what I see...you will find that the vehicle had its geared hub Sheared off from striking something.
i have seen and had in my shop, catastrophic ball joint failure where it's normally the lower BJ that fails, but it will also leave the upper still attached, bend and distort the upper control arm where the BJ attaches.
but in any any event, once it separates, that lower control arm becomes a nasty pivot point for anything it strikes....

this is similar to what can happen if you loose a wheel spindle due to improper installation of key washers on the spindle nut. Always use the new style with 2 tabs, and NEVER reuse them.
its a better system then the clamp nut used by H1 IMO. A lot of off roaders have me replace the clamp nut version with the keyed washer. The best one I have seen is the after market version that uses a square nut, keyed washer and C-clip to keep it all together....by far the most superior and bulletproof design.

http://www.bluehummer.com/lospnutkit.html

 

[saddamsnightmare]

April 19th, 2016.


Retiredwarhorses:


Apparently from the photographs the HMMWV soft top vehicles have less roll over protection then even a new Jeep Wrangler Unlimited, and I suspect that the Unlimited costs a lot less per copy..... Another very poor design foisted on the GI's by TACOM or by the Army vehicle design engineers.

What do you suppose that the labs up in Detroit do for laughs....? The HMMWV was always a poorer design then even the U1300L Unimogs, we were just foolish enough not to admit that the Germans had a better truck and then we should have licensed it for production here. The U1300L is stronger, can carry more and has a much higher ground clearance, and in some ways my M422A1 Mighty Mite had a better suspension to boot...... Even the KIA M715 derivative is a better design overall, oh wait, it's and American one originally too.....

 

[Retiredwarhorses]

April 19th, 2016.


Retiredwarhorses:


Apparently from the photographs the HMMWV soft top vehicles have less roll over protection then even a new Jeep Wrangler Unlimited, and I suspect that the Unlimited costs a lot less per copy..... Another very poor design foisted on the GI's by TACOM or by the Army vehicle design engineers.

What do you suppose that the labs up in Detroit do for laughs....? The HMMWV was always a poorer design then even the U1300L Unimogs, we were just foolish enough not to admit that the Germans had a better truck and then we should have licensed it for production here. The U1300L is stronger, can carry more and has a much higher ground clearance, and in some ways my M422A1 Mighty Mite had a better suspension to boot...... Even the KIA M715 derivative is a better design overall, oh wait, it's and American one originally too.....

your a Mog guy, that's cute, but it don't float my boat...the HMMWV is a late 1970's design...the truck involved was a rag top m998...you ever seen an M151 roll over? I have...several times in the last 30yrs, ain't much left of the jeep, much less the occupants. Not to mention M35's and anything else rag top...trying to compare a HMMWV and a unimog is rediculous. Not is the same class fo vehicle. I wouldn't want to be in any of my trucks in a rollover...M1078, m35a2, mutt, HMMWV. The M1009 would probably fair best.

 

[Artisan]

The Military sells things "For Reasons" ...

 

[saddamsnightmare]

April 20th, 2016.

Actually except for the lack of ROPS, the M422A1 had a much better suspension in terms of on and off road handling. As to the Unimogs ( almost every variant), they do handle better then the HMMWV on road or cross country, they are stronger in the frames and bodies (closed cabs), they can carry more troops and gear in terms of payload, and with the higher ground clearance (which is better if you are facing land mines of any type), they can go places the HMMWV can't go unless assisted by engineer troops. And guess what, they were used for the first MRAP designs. Looks like the HMMWV was a loser in terms of its safety engineering and in its mechanical design, from the start, as the first ones averaged about 360 miles between breakdowns in the 1970's, and even an 18 year old M422A1 did better in that regard at that time, even with world famous USMC maintenance.

The M151 suffered similar issues in terms of rollovers, and we all know what happened to the releases of the later ones, first cut, then crushed, but I have seen very few M35's roll due to their dual wheels and tandem axles, you can do it, but it is a fairly rare event. The same can be said for the 5 tons, though if you're planning to roll either a deuce or a five ton, pick the dump truck version as the headache rack will do something towards protecting the cab. If in doubt with the deuce, leave the drivers door unlocked and the seat belt off, as was done with the logging truck variations, if you're lucky, the truck will throw you clear... if not, oh well.

It would seem that the lack of road clearance under the HMMWV makes them very vulnerable to mine detonations... The drive train and suspension is over engineered and yet is very weak and complex. Why not just use a portal axle and torque tube and save all the happy engineering to get the ground clearance and place the engine mostly in the cab. Time to really design a vehicle that can do the job without breaking the bank. The HMMWV needs to be replaced and the surviving units phased out, but it needs to be replaced with a vehicle designed by and for the users and the mechanics, not the TACOM board. Many of the older military trucks and light utility trucks were better engineered and have proved it by outlasting their design era.

I had an engineer in Texas say that both the M35 and S404.114 Unimogs were incorrectly designed, as they outlasted their original purposes instead of failing at some point. Perhaps that is the problem with modern engineers, they can't envision a 50 year old design still working.

 

[gsp45]

Unipigs. Doesn't float my boat either. If they are so great why are you on this Humvee forum? Had a Unipig 404, wouldn't have another up my butt if you gave me 5 of them, you want laundry list, I'll give it to you by the bushel basket......Antiquated Gas motor sucked, the tranny was like shifting a 1935 Mac truck, 45 mph was top speed going down hill, and they should put the seats back in the stage coach they stole them from. I'll take my American made Humvee over that pig any day of the week.

 

[gsp45]

Point being, can we cease with the trash taking of the Humvee's. This tread has went south, as the Mod said "stay on subject". You want to trash talk start a new thread.