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Overturned HMMWV in NJ, stay safe folks
- Thread starter Mike82ndABN
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o1951
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Thank you for that post.
Now we know accident not caused by a failure of the vehicle components, or by driver inattention or error.
Looks like a reckless driver hit the HMMWV, forcing it into guardrail.
I believe there are many civilian vehicles that would have fared no better under these conditions. Particularly jeep type, soft or open vehicles. It is unlikely most factory roll bars would help much when tangling with a guard rail at highway speeds.
As I said earlier, I see 2 types of roll bars. One for a slow speed roll like during rock crawling. Seat belts and simple roll bar should be enough.
If the goal is to protect at highway speeds, then we will need a cage, helmet and passenger harnesses similar to what NASCAR drivers have. For me, the roll cage, harness, etc is too much.
Barring a catastrophic mechanical failure or reckless driving, I think these are relatively safe vehicles, much safer than some predecessors and some civilian vehicles.
Now we know accident not caused by a failure of the vehicle components, or by driver inattention or error.
Looks like a reckless driver hit the HMMWV, forcing it into guardrail.
I believe there are many civilian vehicles that would have fared no better under these conditions. Particularly jeep type, soft or open vehicles. It is unlikely most factory roll bars would help much when tangling with a guard rail at highway speeds.
As I said earlier, I see 2 types of roll bars. One for a slow speed roll like during rock crawling. Seat belts and simple roll bar should be enough.
If the goal is to protect at highway speeds, then we will need a cage, helmet and passenger harnesses similar to what NASCAR drivers have. For me, the roll cage, harness, etc is too much.
Barring a catastrophic mechanical failure or reckless driving, I think these are relatively safe vehicles, much safer than some predecessors and some civilian vehicles.
Thank you o-1951. So they were forced into the guard rail and the post caught the front wheel? I have to agree that the claim that they are inherently dangerous is not proven in this incident. Given the wide stance, they look exceptionally stable compared with earlier Jeeps and most trucks.
Lawdog734
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I'm glad to hear that there were other circumstances involved other than a mechanical failure being the root cause. I still hate it for all of those involved though, especially the young soldier who is now maimed for life as a result of this.
Granted, in the northeast it can be hard to get around without using controlled access roads like the interstate, turnpikes, etc, but if it was due to another inattentive driver - the incident reflects how critical your route selection can be.
Driving on the interstate, even in the right lane, in a vehicle that moves at 10-20mph slower than the flow of traffic and is purposely painted to be difficult to see, is not putting the odds in your favor. I try to stick to secondary roads at all costs and avoid driving my toys at night if I don't have to.
Granted, in the northeast it can be hard to get around without using controlled access roads like the interstate, turnpikes, etc, but if it was due to another inattentive driver - the incident reflects how critical your route selection can be.
Driving on the interstate, even in the right lane, in a vehicle that moves at 10-20mph slower than the flow of traffic and is purposely painted to be difficult to see, is not putting the odds in your favor. I try to stick to secondary roads at all costs and avoid driving my toys at night if I don't have to.
Really?!!
He died because he was in the hmmwv accident, whether it was instant or 7 days later he died because of the accident, if that was a joke it wasn't funny.
painter paul
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I agree that the wider than normal stance should prevent many rollovers, esp compared to a Jeep.
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greenjeepster
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As a healthcare provider there are many reasons people die in the hospital, MVA may be what put him in the hospital, but it's a major assumption to say that that is what he died from. Could be post op infection/sepsis, post op blood lot related stroke, pulmonary embolis, or something as simple as a living will which prevented implementation of life saving measures. At 7 days post we could not put blunt force trauma from MVA as cause of death.
greenjeepster
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I really don't understand the negative undertone surrounding hmmwvs and their safety that exists on this forum. My state requires a dot inspection of all previously unregistered vehicles when they are brough into the state. They gave me an extensive lists of mods that had to be done to my old deuce, but only wanted a tail plate light and a backup light for the hmmwv.
BnaditCorps
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This looks like a classic case of a vehicle vs guard rail.
That being that the vehicle hit the guard rail and something caught on a post causing the vehicle to do one of the following A) Stop B) Break at the weakest point.
So the vehicle broke at the weakest point, but not before enough force was applied to turn the vehicle sideways. However the vehicle was still moving in the original direction of travel after turning sideways as the post didn't absorb enough energy to stop it. Thus the tires, and remaining part of the one axle, found enough traction to flip the car over; and in doing so the occupants were completely exposed, spare the B post, to the accident.
Picture explanation:
The leg was probably not amputated by the paramedics, or during the crash as A) we don't see lots of blood anywhere, as is usually the case when you have to amputate a limb on the side of a road or when it is torn off by a piece of debris, B) There was not much hurry in getting them to the ambulances, watch the video and you will see the paramedics are walking almost casually, and C) Unless the leg was harmful to the patient's survival they are told not do take it off and let the doctors deal with it.
So my guess is the bones were completely crushed and would not be able to heal/the nerves were destroyed, in either case the effect is pretty much the same as amputation except you are now dragging it around instead of just not having it.
Sad to hear about it and hope everyone recovers well.
That being that the vehicle hit the guard rail and something caught on a post causing the vehicle to do one of the following A) Stop B) Break at the weakest point.
So the vehicle broke at the weakest point, but not before enough force was applied to turn the vehicle sideways. However the vehicle was still moving in the original direction of travel after turning sideways as the post didn't absorb enough energy to stop it. Thus the tires, and remaining part of the one axle, found enough traction to flip the car over; and in doing so the occupants were completely exposed, spare the B post, to the accident.
Picture explanation:
The leg was probably not amputated by the paramedics, or during the crash as A) we don't see lots of blood anywhere, as is usually the case when you have to amputate a limb on the side of a road or when it is torn off by a piece of debris, B) There was not much hurry in getting them to the ambulances, watch the video and you will see the paramedics are walking almost casually, and C) Unless the leg was harmful to the patient's survival they are told not do take it off and let the doctors deal with it.
So my guess is the bones were completely crushed and would not be able to heal/the nerves were destroyed, in either case the effect is pretty much the same as amputation except you are now dragging it around instead of just not having it.
Sad to hear about it and hope everyone recovers well.
tim292stro
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I feel another post here is necessary to bring this back into focus, as it looks like it's running away again.
You need to be aware that mass-media has a habit of editing or framing their video and photographs to prevent the most graphic circumstances of an incident since they can't broadcast extremly graphic content on general broadcasts (liveleak even has 18+ warnings for such content), they are very aware that it's disrespectful to make a spectacle of a potential fatality - they know better. I only saw about 15 seconds of aerial footage and only a handful of ground shots circulated/rebroadcast by the various outlets, and not a single complete orbit, and knowing that I can say that I did not view the whole scene. That's what we have to work with - and we need to respect that if we are not part of the investigation and weren't on the scene, we will only have what they've related publically (witness recounts and reporter commentary is not a reliable source of information - we don't even know how many people were interviewed or have any information on the quality of the witness). It's the individual reporter's job to make the story as interesting as possible with as limited information and as litting reporting time as possible. Though they are not supposed to do so, many reporters will read into a story and draw new or different conclusions from the same base information to try and differentiate their report. Frame your mind that way when reading these stories - it's often best to simple note that an accident occurred, and look for the official report later, before getting worked up or drawing matter-of-fact conclusions. I have only guessed as to what happened based on my 25+ years of witnessing traffic accidents and watching thousands of crash videos over the same years.
Having a lot of family currently and formerly in Fire/EMT/Paramedic/air-ambulance services (as well as my CERT/SAR participation), I can testify that running around frantically doesn't get the patient the best care. Methodically going through the necessary steps to preserve life and physical function is the most important job of the medics. The last thing you want to do to a trauma patient is run around and drop them, so medics will walk at a brisk pace to the ambulance or helicopter. Patients who are conscious are also talking to and watching the medics, so acting frantic and looking panicked is a good way to freak out a patient and put them in a crisis. You can watch how these events are actually handled, played out in the most honest fashion in National Geographic's Inside Combat Rescue - what the Pilots and the Parajumper(s) are doing is the specific job of saving as many lives as possible, listen to how calmly and procedurally they do their jobs. There is a method to life saving.
In general under the American way of doing medicine, there is the "Golden Hour", wherein if you can get a critical-casualty to a trauma center inside of an hour the likelihood of survival is very good. That said different places have different procedures - I'm reminded of the occasion where Princess Dianna was in a car accident in France as a way to illustrate this point. Many in the USA and the U.K. were questioning why the ambulance crew kept stopping while she was in essence dying in the back. In France a patient must be stabilized before transportation can occur, so they kept stopping to attempt to stabilize her. Here in the USA we do what we can to maintain vitals and stabilize until a trauma center can take over with more advanced life saving techniques. It's just a different way of doing basically the same thing, and the laws are different in both places.
Back to the performance of the HMMWV in this crash, though some here either agree with or understood what I've tried conveying, I have apparently not succeeded in reaching many and I will thus clarify by stating the following very bluntly: All vehicles have design limitations. When you exceed them, horribly bad things happen to the occupants. No vehicle, no matter the usage and design can ever be 100% safe in all circumstances. All SUVs are especially susceptible to rollover crashes especially if you get them sideways at speed; exceeding the side slope, spin outs, crashes/impacts, getting a tire of the pavement, and over-correcting are all potential causes of triggering a sideways rollover. HMMWVs are wide to increase their low-speed overland side slope capability, it is not intended to improve turning and slalom performance at speed - the HMMWV is a truck and not a sport's car, and must be treated as such (I know that's not the current "fashion", and many want to drive these at their limits - constantly). If it is your habit to rely on others to provide you safety, or expecting the vehicle to unwaveringly save your hide after you screw up while testing the limits of the vehicle's performance envelope, self driving cars are coming to help you out. The rest of us who actually enjoy and appreciate the driving privilege for what it is, are thrilled to have you out of the driving pool soon!!
Even NASCAR has had fatalities with full crash cages when a crashes occur in an unexpected manner - remember Dale Earnhardt. That car was over $120K specifically designed to survive a high speed crash, and it didn't help (about $75K or half the cost, is for the crash cage/frame). If you are getting into a car or truck and taking it out on the road without the understanding that that you are taking your life in your hands, or aren't driving expecting everyone else on the road being out to get you, you probably need to sit yourself down and have a heart-to-heart in the mirror...
If you are a HMMWV owner and feel that you want to protect yourself from rollover accidents, the best way to start that protection is addressing your driving style. Additional protection hardware is required if you intend to increase your risk based on your intended usage (driving style, road/terrain selection), a frame attached ROPS is a good start there. I've driven over 500,000 miles in about 18 years and never put myself in a situation where I could have rolled any vehicle I've driven - that said, I personally know 5 people who have rolled their cars, and in none of the cases has it been the vehicle's fault (ALL were driver error).
Important to notice: the information posted by EnteJager in post #47 was from a HMMWV accident last year. I do recall that accident too. If anything it would suggest "don't enlist to drive in New Jersey if you value your life."
That was my read way back in post #18. I have not seen or read any new information that would suggest otherwise, nor have we seen the root-cause of the guardrail contact published anywhere as of yet.
In my opinion, I believe it's a bit morbid to go into this type of detail on a public forum - remember that many members here are or were active service, and it is within the realm of possibility that the soldiers involved in the crash may have friends or family that may read this (especially if a Google search links this thread).
You need to be aware that mass-media has a habit of editing or framing their video and photographs to prevent the most graphic circumstances of an incident since they can't broadcast extremly graphic content on general broadcasts (liveleak even has 18+ warnings for such content), they are very aware that it's disrespectful to make a spectacle of a potential fatality - they know better. I only saw about 15 seconds of aerial footage and only a handful of ground shots circulated/rebroadcast by the various outlets, and not a single complete orbit, and knowing that I can say that I did not view the whole scene. That's what we have to work with - and we need to respect that if we are not part of the investigation and weren't on the scene, we will only have what they've related publically (witness recounts and reporter commentary is not a reliable source of information - we don't even know how many people were interviewed or have any information on the quality of the witness). It's the individual reporter's job to make the story as interesting as possible with as limited information and as litting reporting time as possible. Though they are not supposed to do so, many reporters will read into a story and draw new or different conclusions from the same base information to try and differentiate their report. Frame your mind that way when reading these stories - it's often best to simple note that an accident occurred, and look for the official report later, before getting worked up or drawing matter-of-fact conclusions. I have only guessed as to what happened based on my 25+ years of witnessing traffic accidents and watching thousands of crash videos over the same years.
Having a lot of family currently and formerly in Fire/EMT/Paramedic/air-ambulance services (as well as my CERT/SAR participation), I can testify that running around frantically doesn't get the patient the best care. Methodically going through the necessary steps to preserve life and physical function is the most important job of the medics. The last thing you want to do to a trauma patient is run around and drop them, so medics will walk at a brisk pace to the ambulance or helicopter. Patients who are conscious are also talking to and watching the medics, so acting frantic and looking panicked is a good way to freak out a patient and put them in a crisis. You can watch how these events are actually handled, played out in the most honest fashion in National Geographic's Inside Combat Rescue - what the Pilots and the Parajumper(s) are doing is the specific job of saving as many lives as possible, listen to how calmly and procedurally they do their jobs. There is a method to life saving.
In general under the American way of doing medicine, there is the "Golden Hour", wherein if you can get a critical-casualty to a trauma center inside of an hour the likelihood of survival is very good. That said different places have different procedures - I'm reminded of the occasion where Princess Dianna was in a car accident in France as a way to illustrate this point. Many in the USA and the U.K. were questioning why the ambulance crew kept stopping while she was in essence dying in the back. In France a patient must be stabilized before transportation can occur, so they kept stopping to attempt to stabilize her. Here in the USA we do what we can to maintain vitals and stabilize until a trauma center can take over with more advanced life saving techniques. It's just a different way of doing basically the same thing, and the laws are different in both places.
Back to the performance of the HMMWV in this crash, though some here either agree with or understood what I've tried conveying, I have apparently not succeeded in reaching many and I will thus clarify by stating the following very bluntly: All vehicles have design limitations. When you exceed them, horribly bad things happen to the occupants. No vehicle, no matter the usage and design can ever be 100% safe in all circumstances. All SUVs are especially susceptible to rollover crashes especially if you get them sideways at speed; exceeding the side slope, spin outs, crashes/impacts, getting a tire of the pavement, and over-correcting are all potential causes of triggering a sideways rollover. HMMWVs are wide to increase their low-speed overland side slope capability, it is not intended to improve turning and slalom performance at speed - the HMMWV is a truck and not a sport's car, and must be treated as such (I know that's not the current "fashion", and many want to drive these at their limits - constantly). If it is your habit to rely on others to provide you safety, or expecting the vehicle to unwaveringly save your hide after you screw up while testing the limits of the vehicle's performance envelope, self driving cars are coming to help you out. The rest of us who actually enjoy and appreciate the driving privilege for what it is, are thrilled to have you out of the driving pool soon!!
Even NASCAR has had fatalities with full crash cages when a crashes occur in an unexpected manner - remember Dale Earnhardt. That car was over $120K specifically designed to survive a high speed crash, and it didn't help (about $75K or half the cost, is for the crash cage/frame). If you are getting into a car or truck and taking it out on the road without the understanding that that you are taking your life in your hands, or aren't driving expecting everyone else on the road being out to get you, you probably need to sit yourself down and have a heart-to-heart in the mirror...
If you are a HMMWV owner and feel that you want to protect yourself from rollover accidents, the best way to start that protection is addressing your driving style. Additional protection hardware is required if you intend to increase your risk based on your intended usage (driving style, road/terrain selection), a frame attached ROPS is a good start there. I've driven over 500,000 miles in about 18 years and never put myself in a situation where I could have rolled any vehicle I've driven - that said, I personally know 5 people who have rolled their cars, and in none of the cases has it been the vehicle's fault (ALL were driver error).
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KsM715
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I don't see where posting a report from over a year ago ( that in it self does not say the HMMWV was that cause of the death) is relevant to this conversation. No one in this thread has said there has never been a death associated with HMMWV accidents.
All your our doing is adding to the confusion. (How many reading this thread thought that report was from this accident before seeing the date line stating it was from a year ago?
I clarified my statement in post #59
"I posted it for post #44, did't hit quote, my mistake. Sorry for the confusion.
"With about 300 K mil versions and 10 K civi versions on the road, reports of accidents are pretty rare. Fatal accident reports are non-existent. Relatively speaking they are far safer than motorcycles."
"Fatal accident reports are non-existent"
Sometimes you need to read the more than the last few threads to be able to determine if what someone is saying is relevant or not. Posting the accident report from 1 year prior on the same part of the NJ Turnpike coming from Ft. Dix going to NY doesn't get much more relevant than that when someone says fatals are non existent.
The accident did cause the death.
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BnaditCorps
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I am sorry if I unintentionally offended anyone, that was not the intention of my post.
Yes, I understand this fact. I have been part of the response to multiple car crashes, and as such know how operations occur. The intention was that if she were bleeding that heavily they would be moving faster, if stopping the blood flow wasn't working, to get her to the doctors so they can use their better tools to help her. However if they had moved too fast they could have made mistakes making things worse as you state.
That's why it takes so long for firefighters to cut a person out of a car, they go through procedures to stabilize the car and then cut it so that the car doesn't crush them or the patients, and then they have to carefully pull the patient out without hurting them worse. The only time I see them avoid these procedures is when the patient is in mortal danger, I.E. the car is on fire and gas is everywhere, that is only because they need to yank them out to keep them from dying. I guess what I am saying is that my experience with the firefighter's viewpoint was what was driving my thinking, as I never see the paramedics work usually, so I was thinking that if the patient was in mortal danger they would speed things up a little bit. However I guess I was wrong, and I will admit that.
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People get killed in all kinds of rollovers, jeeps, cars, trucks, humvees, motorcycles. Blanket statements that these are unsafe on the road is nonsense any more than pointing out all vehicles are inherently unsafe, they're mechanical and anything mechanical will and can break at some point in it's life. Driving is a risk. So is walking across the county road to get my mail.
davidhdale
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Lets just pray for the soliders and the other can wait till more information is released .they all can use our prayers.there no need to make the driver fell any worse if he did hit something.
Bravojmc
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Well said.
davidhdale
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Sorry i completely missed the date sorry about my very late post. Thought it happened this week