Red's deuce/camper project

[red]

Very true. I'm not cranking up the power much from stock (if any) but finding that getting up to 600hp is basically just turbo and fuel mods, no internal upgrades.

Average price on them, finding for 2-4k as a running take out, with computer on the later models.

Now to figure out the transmission to go with it. Manual or auto is alright. An Allison at545 won't work because of no overdrive.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Why not adapt the stock trans? Sounds like it would be a good fit to me.

 

[red]

I'll be over its torque rating with the engine swap. If I didn't carry cargo or anything heavy I would try it out.

Plus my trans is in unknown condition now after the flat tow trip. Locked up motor and fried the clutch to the point you could feel the rivets digging into metal, either the pressure plate or the flywheel. So I'm planning worst case scenario, that the trans is done for.

 

[rustystud]

The smallest Allison transmission you could use safely behind this engine would be a MT650 series. The military has been dumping a ton of them on the market lately so it should not be hard to find a good one. I actually bought one for $300.00. I would go with a "CR" model. CR stands for "close ratio" gearset. You don't really need a granny gear in a deuce with our transfer case. So for example a MT654CR transmission would be a 5 speed with lock-up torque convertor and close ratio gears. You can pick-up a MT654DR cheaper (deep ratio) but don't do it. You must come to a complete stop to shift out of 1st gear. Our wreckers at work all have DR transmissions. They come with lock-outs to prevent you from shifting out of first. Well a few years ago a newbee mechanic was out on the wrecker and decided he didn't need to stop the rig to go into second. He forced the lockout out of the way and manually shifted to second. The driveline ripped right out of the transmission and took out the air lines on the frame. You see 1st gear on the HT750DR is around 8:1 . Second is around 4:1 so when it shifted the engine RPM was at 2,600rpm's and road speed was 5 miles per hour. It's like hitting a brick wall when it shifted. Thankfully the driveline was the weak link and not the differentials.

 

[DavidWymore]

I have two deuces and know of a third coming up for sale. None have good trannies...

 

[Another Ahab]

Well a few years ago a newbee mechanic was out on the wrecker and decided he didn't need to stop the rig to go into second. He forced the lockout out of the way and manually shifted to second. The driveline ripped right out of the transmission and took out the air lines on the frame. You see 1st gear on the HT750DR is around 8:1 . Second is around 4:1 so when it shifted the engine RPM was at 2,600rpm's and road speed was 5 miles per hour. It's like hitting a brick wall when it shifted. Thankfully the driveline was the weak link and not the differentials.

The weak link might actually be human error; and the guy who thinks he's smarter than the machinery, you know!?

 

[red]

The smallest Allison transmission you could use safely behind this engine would be a MT650 series. The military has been dumping a ton of them on the market lately so it should not be hard to find a good one. I actually bought one for $300.00. I would go with a "CR" model. CR stands for "close ratio" gearset. You don't really need a granny gear in a deuce with our transfer case. So for example a MT654CR transmission would be a 5 speed with lock-up torque convertor and close ratio gears. You can pick-up a MT654DR cheaper (deep ratio) but don't do it. You must come to a complete stop to shift out of 1st gear. Our wreckers at work all have DR transmissions. They come with lock-outs to prevent you from shifting out of first. Well a few years ago a newbee mechanic was out on the wrecker and decided he didn't need to stop the rig to go into second. He forced the lockout out of the way and manually shifted to second. The driveline ripped right out of the transmission and took out the air lines on the frame. You see 1st gear on the HT750DR is around 8:1 . Second is around 4:1 so when it shifted the engine RPM was at 2,600rpm's and road speed was 5 miles per hour. It's like hitting a brick wall when it shifted. Thankfully the driveline was the weak link and not the differentials.

Besides the 1st gear difference are the other ratios pretty similar?

 

[red]

Been doing some research on transmission options.
Auto's:
M3060-rated for around 900ft/lbs of torque, has a .75 and .65 overdrive ratios (computer controlled).
MT653-rated for around 600ft/lbs of torque, no overdrive.
MT654-Higher rating, no overdrive. M900 series trans.

Manuals:
5 and 6 speeds all seem to have the same .79 overdrive ratio, no improvement over the spicer stock overdrive.
11 and 13 speeds have a .71 final overdrive.

Transfercase:
Stock deuce tcase has a 1:1 high range, haven't found it's torque rating.
T-1138 transfer case from a 900 series 5 ton has a high ratio of .73


Since my goal is 60-65mph, finding a way to get the rpm's down to 1800-2100 at those speeds makes sense. Extended engine life, better fuel economy, and quieter engine noise. These RPM's are with 395 (46") tires and the stock 6.72 axle ratio

Overall ratio of .79, 2327rpm at 60mph, 2521rpm at 65mph.
5-6 speed manual and stock deuce Tcase.

With a overall ratio of .73, that's 2150rpm at 60mph, 2329rpm at 65mph.
MT653 or MT654 with T1138 Tcase.

Overdrive at .71, 2091rpm at 60mph, 2265rpm at 65mph.
11 and 13 speed manual trans with stock deuce Tcase.

Overdrive at .65, 1914rpm at 60mph, 2074rpm at 65mph.
MD3060 and deuce Tcase.

Overdrive at .58, 1708rpm at 60mph, 1851rpm at 65mph.
5 or 6 speed manual with T1138 Tcase.


With the RPM's figured for the different combinations, It leaves 3 options for my goals.
1. Stock M900 series trans/Tcase.
2. 11 or 13 speed manual with deuce Tcase.
3. Allison MD3060 with deuce Tcase.

For the price tag, the stock drivetrain from a M900 series appears to be the best option. The big question is, will it fit? An MD3060 gives the best final rpm ratio, but I haven't looked at their price tag yet.

 

[rustystud]

Been doing some research on transmission options.
Auto's:
M3060-rated for around 900ft/lbs of torque, has a .75 and .65 overdrive ratios (computer controlled).
MT653-rated for around 600ft/lbs of torque, no overdrive.
MT654-Higher rating, no overdrive. M900 series trans.

Manuals:
5 and 6 speeds all seem to have the same .79 overdrive ratio, no improvement over the spicer stock overdrive.
11 and 13 speeds have a .71 final overdrive.

Transfercase:
Stock deuce tcase has a 1:1 high range, haven't found it's torque rating.
T-1138 transfer case from a 900 series 5 ton has a high ratio of .73


Since my goal is 60-65mph, finding a way to get the rpm's down to 1800-2100 at those speeds makes sense. Extended engine life, better fuel economy, and quieter engine noise.

Overall ratio of .79, 2327rpm at 60mph, 2521rpm at 65mph.
5-6 speed manual and stock deuce Tcase.

With a overall ratio of .73, that's 2150rpm at 60mph, 2329rpm at 65mph.
MT653 or MT654 with T1138 Tcase.

Overdrive at .71, 2091rpm at 60mph, 2265rpm at 65mph.
11 and 13 speed manual trans with stock deuce Tcase.

Overdrive at .65, 1914rpm at 60mph, 2074rpm at 65mph.
MD3060 and deuce Tcase.

Overdrive at .58, 1708rpm at 60mph, 1851rpm at 65mph.
5 or 6 speed manual with T1138 Tcase.


With the RPM's figured for the different combinations, It leaves 3 options for my goals.
1. Stock M900 series trans/Tcase.
2. 11 or 13 speed manual with deuce Tcase.
3. Allison MD3060 with deuce Tcase.

For the price tag, the stock drivetrain from a M900 series appears to be the best option. The big question is, will it fit? An MD3060 gives the best final rpm ratio, but I haven't looked at their price tag yet.

I would not even consider the computer controlled transmission. The wiring and controls needed to make it run is not worth the money and time in my opinion. Plus there is the wear factor of these transmissions. Wiring does not stand up will to being in a 200 degree plus oil environment. They need to be replaced on a regular biases. As does the electronic shift solenoids. I would try and stuff in the M900 series system if I could.

 

[DavidWymore]

I think the frame rails are the same standard 34" apart that most trucks are, so I would think it would fit. I've been up under my buddy's. The engine and trans aren't huge, but the T-case is.

Interesting you discovered the T case overdrive...

 

[Jeepsinker]

Just find a GOOD LDS, make sure it has 12 point rod bolts and the new style headgaskets, then install the waterloo specialties overdrive kit in your stock trans, and you'll have a pretty reliable, fairly powerful engine and you can run 65 with 1100r20s.

Don't turn this into an over complicated project that never gets finished.

 

[red]

I think the frame rails are the same standard 34" apart that most trucks are, so I would think it would fit. I've been up under my buddy's. The engine and trans aren't huge, but the T-case is.

Interesting you discovered the T case overdrive...

If the frame width is the standard then it will fit with no problem, I'll have to measure one of the 5 tons at the show tomorrow.

Was looking up the ratio's on the DT650 series transmissions and found that they are a non overdrive model, thought it was no longer an option at that point. Started roaming around on the forum and found this thread http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?59654-M818-Transfer-Case-Upgrade-T-138-to-T-1138 which lead me to this sticky http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?103637-What-has-what-cheat-sheet-to-MV-powertrains. That's how I learned that the T1138 Tcase has an overdrive ratio high range.

Allison transmissions are used worldwide like the International engines, so getting parts wont be a big problem. The MT654 is a solid trans and will handle a DT466 engine that has been turned up a little bit. Like Rustystud mentioned since some of the M900's are getting scrapped out the cost of the drivetrain is pretty good.

Not to worry Jeepsinker this project will not disappear from being overwhelmed, been stalled because I've been unemployed. Doing everything in steps. An engine swap was not planned for a few more years, but it has to happen now. My problem with the LDS is the parts availability outside of the military surplus market does not exist when it comes to parts that are not standard maintenance. Around here a LDS costs about the same as the DT466.


The upgrade to the MT654 and T1138 is reasonably priced. More expensive than a new clutch kit for the spicer 3053a (mine is completely gone, could feel the rivets from the clutch gouging into metal), but not massive with cost.

Selling off the parts from the stock drivetrain to offset the cost, so shoot me a PM for things that are wanted.

 

[red]

Just find a GOOD LDS, make sure it has 12 point rod bolts and the new style headgaskets, then install the waterloo specialties overdrive kit in your stock trans, and you'll have a pretty reliable, fairly powerful engine and you can run 65 with 1100r20s.

Don't turn this into an over complicated project that never gets finished.

Dollar for dollar breakdown:
LDS swap, upgrade/fix stock drivetrain:$3894
Complete clutch kit-$560
OD upgrade-$1394
LDS-$2000 average
Assuming it has a power steering pump.

DT466 with MT654 and T1138:$4000 without selling anything.
M900 series drivetrain-$1000
DT466-$2500 (average)
MISC-$500 (estimate, little things always get expensive)

Running heavier duty and more reliable drivetrain with the upgrade. Cost after selling the extras will make the swap about equal, maybe even cheaper.

 

[DavidWymore]

Makes me wanna put a 900 powertrain in an 800. Like the old school look, and I know deuce axles wouldn't hold up for me with the bigger powertrain.

 

[red]

Woohoo I got the job!! So, time to order the 900 series trans/tcase!

 

[welldigger]

Ok so how exactly are you going to fit a 939 series drive train in the deuce? Just so you know the front output is on the drivers side on the 5 ton.

 

[red]

Beauty of the Rockwell axles is that they can be flipped, from a passenger side to a driver side. Pull the axle shafts, knuckles, pull the carrier. Spin the axle around, drill some new holes, reinstall assembly.

Not a quick job, but doesn't take much fab work.

 

[Jeepsinker]

You could just install the 8.3 Cummins as well. They are a good engine. They weigh about the same as the multi and it has been done before.

 

[USAFSS-ColdWarrior]

woohoo i got the job!! So, time to order the 900 series trans/tcase!

congratz !



.

 

[red]

Hmm, problem. The 900 series drive train is way too long to fit under the deuce.