Runaway Multifuel cutoff?

[Mark2X2]

I had a near miss with a true runaway last year.I had a turbo blow.Luckly it dumped oil into the exhaust instead of the intake.Seen one run backwards at last year clinto rally too.That was interesting.....1 forward gear and 5 reverse with smoke comming out the mushroom......

Back in the day we had a 208 TimberJack pole skidder with a 353 Detroit, was decking poles and killed the motor at the top of the pile. I let the clutch out as I was rolling backwards off the pile, it started the motor backwards. Was confused why it was running so poor, then the exhaust started coming out the air cleaner. Shut it down then restarted it, fired right back up the right direction. My Dad tipped it over once, it ran away on engine oil, he had to pull the air shut off.
Mark

 

[Josh]

my neighbor was an combat engineer in vietnam and he said when they sucked a turbo gasket they would just run the truck into an embackment dump the clutch in 5th and if it didnt kill them, they would just let it sit there and blow up, course, when that happened, he said they would get a new one pretty soon, but he said a few times they were lucky enough to kill them.

 

[FreightTrain]

as long as you can pull the fuel shut off, you can kill it. just see that the shut off operates before you crank it. as to the clutch in 5th gear, once the engine is past 8000 rpm i doubt it would stop it...............

actually,in most runaways the fuel shutoff does absolutly nothing.And I don't think the engine will make it to 4000RPM let alone 8000.....my Rangers engine won't even hold that.

 

[StrykerPez]

How about finding a throttle body from a newer vehicle and putting that inline with the intake. Sounds like a very good idea to me.

 

[GoHot229]

This has been posted before with some bit of discussion, and methods of shutting down a motor. Some guys carry a small square of wood that can be put over the intake pipe, provided the mushroom is not tight and can be readily twisted back and forth and pulled off. To me that seems redundant and a reason to have a un-dinged or un-bent mushroom, that is, to pull it off, flip upside down and put on the pipe to seal off incoming air. In other words the clamp on the mushroom (mushroom shaped air cleaner end cap) shpuld be loose enough to twist off readily, but tight enough to not rattle. Seems to me pulling it quickly and fliping it upside down and putting on the intake pipe would do the trick. Mabe you members out there can say one way or another. I'm also hearing that you should pull the dash kill t-handle. That would be my first move, automatically, as I'm sure it would be for you'all. But I also hear of the cable not working to shut off fuel??? !!! What - the - hay.... I dont think I'd be driving a Deuce with a non-functioning kill handle/cable. That seems, asking for calamity. If your that lax about your maintenance, then you ARE not doing it right, and are endangering many others besides yourself and have NO BUSINESS risking it, think about it, am I right?........

 

[ETHOS]

How about finding a throttle body from a newer vehicle and putting that inline with the intake. Sounds like a very good idea to me.

interesting.........

I like it, if we could find the vehicle with the correct size bore, and a throtttle plate strong enough not to bend in due to the suction......


so how large in dia is the intake pipe?

 

[army70deuce]

Hey found a place that makes exactly what is needed, in different sizes and methods of operations, manual, hydraulic, electric, etc. Now just need to verify the intake size. I'm planning on putting it between the air filter box and the engine. Here's the website for all those interested.

air intake shut off valve by amot control - emergency shut down valve

 

[maybefixit]

But I also hear of the cable not working to shut off fuel??? !!! What - the - hay.... I dont think I'd be driving a Deuce with a non-functioning kill handle/cable. That seems, asking for calamity. If your that lax about your maintenance, then you ARE not doing it right, and are endangering many others besides yourself and have NO BUSINESS risking it, think about it, am I right?........

I get the impression that what's being said is that in some cases, the fuel source for the runaway is other than the injection pump, so that the cutoff performs its job, but does nothing to stop the problem. Of course, the cutoff cable and other safety gear for the truck should be working to ensure safety.

 

[m.walker]

I've seen tractor pullers with an air intake shut off .

 

[scooter01922]

Cool site army70 but i bet those things are expensive. Still, can't be nearly as much as a new engine. FWIW i think the throttle body suggestion is a winner, just need to find one the right size.

 

[FreightTrain]

well,Give ya a heads up.Fire engines come standard with them(well most do).Trucks in the oil and gas drilling business,2 stroke screaming Jimmies(detroits),and most trucks delivering flammable gases like Propane.Last thing you want is to be rolling up to a fire/wellhead/delivery area and have the truck drive through a invisable cloud of gas and go nuclear on ya.Overrevving engine+rods flying out the block=sparks and big boom!

Like this one.....notice the driver running around the front,getting in the cab then big boom.and once the fireball dies down the hood was blown open so the fire started at the engine.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhwMfuFIF1Q[/media]

 

[1stDeuce]

Ok, so as I see it there are a couple of kinds of runaway, simplest being that the engine just won't kill with the fuel shutoff, and idles forever, so you put it in 2nd or 3rd or 4th and let the clutch out gently and it snubs. EZ.

More dangerous runaway is IP stuck at high throttle on startup or thereafter, and the shutoff has to be pulled before it ventilates it's crankcase. Once you yank the shutoff, it's OK.

Worst case is that the turbo seal on the intake side lets go and oil pressure starts sending crankcase oil into the intake air... This mean no diesel is needed to keep the engine running, and you're going to get big RPM out of it quickly if you have decent oil pressure... So the question becomes where are you when the seal lets go??? If you're standing on the pass side, closest to the air intake, rip the shroom off and use it or somethign else to cover the intake. Even if it still gets air, it'll keep the RPM's down until you or someone else can climb in and put it in a higher gear and get the clutch out to finish it off.... (Not necessary to "pop" the clutch, just let it out slowly...) Or if you're on the driver's side, or in the cab when it lets go, get it in a higher gear and get the clutch out... If you were moving, go for the brakes in like 4th gear. They'll kill it easily.

I don't really see the need for a fancy solution, just the ability for you to react very quickly with whatever you have on hand... ??? I suppose if they ran away every 10th start a valve would be nice, but chances are good that it'll never run away, so why spend so much time worrying about it... if you're there, it's easy to deal with. If you're not, that throttle valve is useless anyway.

Just my $.02. Well, $.05 perhaps....
C

 

[OPCOM]

This has been posted before with some bit of discussion, and methods of shutting down a motor. Some guys carry a small square of wood that can be put over the intake pipe, provided the mushroom is not tight and can be readily twisted back and forth and pulled off. To me that seems redundant and a reason to have a un-dinged or un-bent mushroom, that is, to pull it off, flip upside down and put on the pipe to seal off incoming air. In other words the clamp on the mushroom (mushroom shaped air cleaner end cap) shpuld be loose enough to twist off readily, but tight enough to not rattle. Seems to me pulling it quickly and fliping it upside down and putting on the intake pipe would do the trick. Mabe you members out there can say one way or another. I'm also hearing that you should pull the dash kill t-handle. That would be my first move, automatically, as I'm sure it would be for you'all. But I also hear of the cable not working to shut off fuel??? !!! What - the - hay.... I dont think I'd be driving a Deuce with a non-functioning kill handle/cable. That seems, asking for calamity. If your that lax about your maintenance, then you ARE not doing it right, and are endangering many others besides yourself and have NO BUSINESS risking it, think about it, am I right?........

On mine the mushroom is held on by a hose clamp. Pulling it off would not be so easy since the clamp cannot pass through the side cover. I like the throttle body idea, if one has to have a choke method. Need a big TG for that. Plus, with 14PSI on it, would take some doing to shut it. Would a cable even do?

 

[ken]

I would think a blown turbo seal wouldn't produce enough oil in the air stream to support a runaway. It might idle on it but not run away. I've overhauled alot of these turbo's many with blown seals. But no complaints of engine run away. There just isn't enough oil in a "C or D" turbo to keep it running. And most of the time the oil puddles in the bottom of the compressor housing. Not to mention when the compressor side seal goes the turbine shaft collides with the thrust bearing plate and stailes the turbo.

 

[wdbtchr]

well,Give ya a heads up.Fire engines come standard with them(well most do).Trucks in the oil and gas drilling business,2 stroke screaming Jimmies(detroits),and most trucks delivering flammable gases like Propane.Last thing you want is to be rolling up to a fire/wellhead/delivery area and have the truck drive through a invisable cloud of gas and go nuclear on ya.Overrevving engine+rods flying out the block=sparks and big boom!

Like this one.....notice the driver running around the front,getting in the cab then big boom.and once the fireball dies down the hood was blown open so the fire started at the engine.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhwMfuFIF1Q[/media]

I saw that on TV after it happened. The unloading hose ruptured releasing a cloud of propane that eventually reached the engine, causing it to runaway and explode. It probably would have caused an explosion anyway because it happened at a foundry while it was in operation.

 

[jesusgatos]

I don't really see the need for a fancy solution, just the ability for you to react very quickly with whatever you have on hand... ??? I suppose if they ran away every 10th start a valve would be nice, but chances are good that it'll never run away, so why spend so much time worrying about it... if you're there, it's easy to deal with. If you're not, that throttle valve is useless anyway.

From what I read on their website, it looks like the valve gets some kind of RPM signal and can sense a runaway condition - then activate automatically. Am I understanding that right?

 

[dentman]

Craftsman 4 in. Blast Gate, Aluminum

A 4in. blast gate may be an easy install and it would cost about $20 for all the parts.

Drgreg - i like this concept but several things im thinking are;
---if the gate doesnt open 100% you'll obviously reduce intake volume
---possibly ingest H20/ ice (winter air) as the reduction collar (gate partially open) will create low pressure like an airfoil...
---do you think the blast gate door would be able to stand up to the intake pressure requested by the motor at say 3500 RPM?

 

[drgreg]

Drgreg - i like this concept but several things im thinking are;
---if the gate doesnt open 100% you'll obviously reduce intake volume
---possibly ingest H20/ ice (winter air) as the reduction collar (gate partially open) will create low pressure like an airfoil...
---do you think the blast gate door would be able to stand up to the intake pressure requested by the motor at say 3500 RPM?

This is just a low cost concept, I have not invested the $8 required to prove it out.
These blast gates are made for dust collection systems that require a lot of CFM and would clog if restricted. It is made of metal and would probably stand up to a run-a-way better than a butterfly gate.

 

[wdbtchr]

I would wonder if an ordinary blast gate would be air tight enough to block the air flow completely. Most dust collection systems are not very high vacuum levels and rely on high air flows to work.

I was looking at these:Positive Seal Blast Gates Of course they are more expensive.

 

[adrianspeeder]

Had a Cat V8 turbo runaway on us at work last year in a 90k aircraft tug. They are auto, so had to starve it of air. First tried a chalk against the airbox but couldn't get a tight seal. Ripped the airbox cover and filter off next and for a stupid second started to use my hands covering the hole. About three inches away it was pullin enough to rip down on my gloves. Oh snap!

Anyway slapped the first aid kit over the circle and it was still pulling enough air through the small little gap to keep revving and make the loudest whistle you've ever heard. Random piece of cardboard and then the first aid kit box stopped it finally with me standing on it.

Really suprised me how much air gets pulled in at speed.

Adrianspeeder