She won't start in the cold!

[Yohan]

Do you mean that you leave the engine shut-off pushed in after shut-down and then pull it out just before you start it? I leave mine pulled out after I shut down. What does your friend recommend?

Lax, my truck starts great in the cold, but I do appreciate you posting for help and for everyone who is offering good advice. It keeps me thinking about the many things one should be thinking about on these neat, old trucks. Good luck with it and if you need a spare hand, I'm in central NY.

...Okay, he then told me to pull the stop engine lever(fuel cutoff) every day the first time I start it because he said they have a tendency to have leaking injectors which can cause the engine to hydraulic after sitting overnight...

 

[stumps]

Okay, he then told me to pull the stop engine lever(fuel cutoff) every day the first time I start it because he said they have a tendency to have leaking injectors which can cause the engine to hydraulic after sitting overnight. If you think about the pressure the injection pump builds and then imagine shutting down your engine after it's been running, it sits for 12 hours with a leaky injector and slightly fills a cylinder. He said it's common to bend a rod in these things. I've heard a few other people on here talking about how weak the rods are in the Deuce as well; I don't know of many engines that survive being hydrauliced anyway...

I figured that was one reason, but my theory is that you get all the air or should I say allow the lift pump to pump up the system before you start cranking and creating high pressure to the injectors. I'm sure the injection pump is like any other pump and likes a non-airated supply of fuel for best performance.

Like I said in the previous post; it fired off in a few revs. I was impressed, but I also realize there's some other components I need to check/replace/adjust...

Hope this helps...

Your friend told you the essence of deuce starting religion, but either he didn't tell you the whole deal, or you forgot some of it.

The deuce has a super high compression ratio compared to most diesels, 22.5-to-1. This allows the MF engine to burn cold gasoline. It has a big and deep compression chamber (pit) built into the pistons, that would contain any small amount of leakage that would come from leaky injectors... unless you left the accessory power turned on, letting the fuel pump run, while the engine was stopped for an extended period... but it won't handle ingested water, or water that leaks in from a leaky head gasket. That will cause an instantaneously bent connecting rod when other cylinders in the engine fire.

The starter motor doesn't have enough torque to go past a hydro-locked cylinder.

Deuce starting religion, as set down by the head shack, is to:

1) put the truck in neutral.
2) set the fuel cutoff valve to off.
3) turn the accessory power on.
4) press in the clutch.
5) crank the engine for a couple of seconds (fuel off).
6) set the fuel cutoff valve to on.
7) crank the engine to start.
8 ) let it idle until you hear the oil starved bearings stop clattering,
and the turbo start spinning... about 1 to 2 minutes.
9) bring the idle up to 1000RPM, and let it idle for the rest of 5 minutes,
while the air pressure builds.
10) After you have air pressure, off you go!

Deuce shutdown religion, as set down by the head shack, is that you:

1) put the truck in neutral, set the brakes, and let it idle.
2) when 5 minutes is up, you turn off the accessory power,
and pull the fuel cutoff to shut it down.
3) chock the wheels
4) blow the water out of the air tanks.

Cranking the engine for a couple of seconds with the fuel cutoff allows each cylinder to go through a compression stroke. If any cylinder is hydro-locked, the engine will go thump and not crank anymore. No damage will occur. [To unlock a hydro-locked engine, you have to remove the injectors, and crank the engine until enough of the water is out, and then put it back together and run it... Oh, you had better fix that leaky head gasket ASAP...]

Letting it idle at slow idle until the bearings stop clattering is to give the oil pump time to fill the completely empty oil filter canisters, and completely dry oil galleries, and bearings, AT THE SLOWEST ENGINE SPEED POSSIBLE. This reduces damage to the bearings (from the poor oil filter design) to the minimum possible. A set of spin on oil filter adapters, and oil filters with anti backflow valves is the easiest, best single thing you can do to improve the life of your MF engine.

Whatever you do, do NOT race the engine until after it is fully warmed up, if ever! Idle is the rule on a just started engine.

Some engines, particularly those with bypassed Fuel Density Compensators (FDC), need to see a little throttle when starting, especially when cold. That is usually because the Injector Pump (IP) wasn't adjusted quite properly to compensate for the removal of the FDC function.

-Chuck

 

[OneCool70Deuce]

What works...

"Your friend told you the essence of deuce starting religion, but either he didn't tell you the whole deal, or you forgot some of it."

Well, lets just say that I don't feel the need to sit in my Deuce for the mentioned 5 minute cool down time, because I know better than to think that is going to significantly increase my turbos life. In my experience when measuring the time it takes to cool down a turbo before engine shutdown, I have never seen the turbo on my Deuce take longer than 2 minutes to cool down the housing and the bearings. Not only that, most of the time, just before most people park their trucks the engine load and speed(rpms) is very low thus not creating alot of heat.

If your Deuce takes 5 minutes to pump up the air system; you have a leak.

I definately disagree about the starter not having the effort to hurt the rods. Not to mention stuffing the rings with water or diesel; whatever may be leaking.

Draining the air tanks daily is a bit overkill as well, but one must consider the humidity in the region in which they live. I drain mine once a week; seems to be pleanty regardless if its raining or dry.

What I'm tell you here is there is no end all be all system to handling these trucks. Oil pressure issue should be handled with the adaptors and check valve spin on filters. At that point, you'll have oil pressure almost instantly to around 5 seconds depending on the engines condition.

I guess the key word here is "religion". I've got mine and you've got the one that "head shack" told you.

 

[stumps]

Originally Posted by OneCool70Deuce
Okay, he then told me to pull the stop engine lever(fuel cutoff) every day the first time I start it because he said they have a tendency to have leaking injectors which can cause the engine to hydraulic after sitting overnight. If you think about the pressure the injection pump builds and then imagine shutting down your engine after it's been running, it sits for 12 hours with a leaky injector and slightly fills a cylinder. He said it's common to bend a rod in these things. I've heard a few other people on here talking about how weak the rods are in the Deuce as well; I don't know of many engines that survive being hydrauliced anyway...

Hmmm? Ok... What is your reasoning for pulling the stop engine "lever" before starting again?

-Chuck

 

[OneCool70Deuce]

Easier starting Deuce...

1. To help bleed off the possible hydraulic issue. It would allow some pressure release by having that lever pulled.

2. To allow the lift pump in the tank to more fully prime the system.


3. Because it works...

 

[stumps]

1. To help bleed off the possible hydraulic issue. It would allow some pressure release by having that lever pulled.

2. To allow the lift pump in the tank to more fully prime the system.


3. Because it works...

Good, then my assumption that you didn't understand what was going on was correct .

Sometimes, the Injector Pump's (IP) fuel cutoff valve gets sticky... usually after long periods of disuse. If the cutoff valve was left in the off position, the spring pressure from the governor may be insufficient to turn the fuel back on to the idle position when you push the engine stop knob back in. You can usually tell if this has happened because your engine cranks and cranks, but won't start, and no white smoke comes out of the stack.

By exercising the engine stop knob, you might.... might... cause a sticky the fuel control valve to unstick... But I don't think that is very likely.

When a Fuel Density Compensator (FDC) gets old, it will often start to leak fuel directly into the crankcase.... a lot of fuel. To correct for this problem (after the services standardized on diesel fuel) the mechanics would bypass the FDC from the fuel line. Bypassing the FDC makes the IP think the fuel is always gasoline (a relatively low energy fuel), so it turns up the fuel rate to the maximum rate.... which would be smoke city if you were actually burning a high energy fuel, like diesel.

When the FDC failed, and needed bypassing, the mechanics were supposed to send it, and the IP back to the depot to be calibrated for diesel only operation, but the instruction sheets for bypassing the FDC gave an emergency setting for the fuel adjustment screw to be used in, well, emergencies. I guess we were in a perpetual state of emergency, because it appears that many mechanics just made the emergency fuel screw adjustment, and sent the truck on its way. That works ok for some IP's, but because of manufacturing variations, others need a little more, or a little less fuel. If yours is one of those that needs a little more fuel, it won't start easily at idle.... but it will start easily if you give it a little accelerator pedal.

Try abandoning the stop control fiddling, and just add the extra idle speed. I think you will have a good result.

-Chuck

 

[OneCool70Deuce]

You know what happens when you assume...

You're assumption is wrong sir; not surprised you're telling to idle up my Deuce to make it start easier. The result of that would be a warm engine idling at a higher than specified rpms. Boy for someone trying to sound all textbook on this stuff; you sure have some bubba ideas to solve problems.

Let me review what you're telling myself and others to believe:

"Sometimes, the Injector Pump's (IP) fuel cutoff valve gets sticky... usually after long periods of disuse. If the cutoff valve was left in the off position, the spring pressure from the governor may be insufficient to turn the fuel back on to the idle position when you push the engine stop knob back in. You can usually tell if this has happened because your engine cranks and cranks, but won't start, and no white smoke comes out of the stack."

Okay, but I drive my truck two and three times a week...use that valve all the time AND I checked the adjustment of the cable and that the valve is fully retreating into the housing by itself.

"When a Fuel Density Compensator (FDC) gets old, it will often start to leak fuel directly into the crankcase.... a lot of fuel. To correct for this problem (after the services standardized on diesel fuel) the mechanics would bypass the FDC from the fuel line. Bypassing the FDC makes the IP think the fuel is always gasoline (a relatively low energy fuel), so it turns up the fuel rate to the maximum rate.... which would be smoke city if you were actually burning a high energy fuel, like diesel."

Okay, my crankcase has the correct amount of oil in it and isn't full of fuel. But this is great information for anyone who might have this problem. Why is it I get the feeling this guy is quoting this stuff directly out of a service manual. Are you really this much of a tool?

"When the FDC failed, and needed bypassing, the mechanics were supposed to send it, and the IP back to the depot to be calibrated for diesel only operation, but the instruction sheets for bypassing the FDC gave an emergency setting for the fuel adjustment screw to be used in, well, emergencies. I guess we were in a perpetual state of emergency, because it appears that many mechanics just made the emergency fuel screw adjustment, and sent the truck on its way. That works ok for some IP's, but because of manufacturing variations, others need a little more, or a little less fuel. If yours is one of those that needs a little more fuel, it won't start easily at idle.... but it will start easily if you give it a little accelerator pedal.

Try abandoning the stop control fiddling, and just add the extra idle speed. I think you will have a good result."

Okay, so let's "Assume" there's that word again; that the mechanic from the military who overhauled my engine in 2005 didn't do what he was supposed to do and turned my fuel adjustment screw in to the specified setting. Why in the "F" would I turn my idle speed up instead of slightly bumping the pressure so I would get a better spray during crank? Not to mention, it would also help throttle response. I would only do this while monitoring EGT's(that's Exhaust Gas Temperatures) and how the cooling system may or may not handle the extra heat.

You might caution how quickly you "Assume" there's that word again; someone doesn't understand something on here. Just because you're sitting in your beanbag chair eating cheetoes all day and reading your service manuals; that doesn't give you the knowledge or right to start splattering your assumptions all over a forum full of people who might not want to have a too fast idle speed on their Deuce...

I know I'm not...do us a favor and go back to your service manual; or better yet take a FDC and IP apart and then come back to tell everyone how it works.

 

[stumps]

I'm not trying to sell you on the idea of idling up your deuce to make starting easier. I'm trying to show you a way to prove that fiddling with the engine stop knob isn't what is making your deuce start easier.

You are the one that said bringing your idle up, and fiddling with your stop control made your deuce start easier.

As a fun little quiz, what do you suppose your MF engine will do when you "slightly bump(ing) the pressure" going to the injectors at idle?

-Chuck

 

[OneCool70Deuce]

Not even close...

more pressure ='s more fuel ='s higher idle which would REQUIRE THE stop screw to be adjusted down.

And no, I didn't say to adjust your idle speed screw to make it start easier. That came from your post and some reference to fiddling...remember?

I simply said to pull the fuel cutoff lever with the lift pump running. Be sure to quote me on that one...

Look, regardless of what your book says; what I described worked perfectly for My Deuce. What other's vehicles will do I don't know. Would imagine it depends on engine condition/IP condition/who's had their greasy #$%^ beaters on it.

I'm not on here to compete; just to share some info that worked on my ride. You're info just seemed a bit textbook and like you have no experience wrenching on this kind of iron.

But with that, what is your experience? I"m be more than happy to share mine as well.

 

[stumps]

more pressure ='s more fuel ='s higher idle which would REQUIRE THE stop screw to be adjusted down.

Which will bring the pressure back down, and the idle back down.

And no, I didn't say to adjust your idle speed screw to make it start easier. That came from your post and some reference to fiddling...remember?

I thought you had, but I apparently mis-attributed that to you from another post. Sorry.

I simply said to pull the fuel cutoff lever with the lift pump running. Be sure to quote me on that one...

Gladly. I will endeavor to not attribute the ideas of others to you, as well.

Pulling out the fuel cutoff knob, with the fuel tank pump running, isn't going to do anything about fuel dripping into the cylinders (past, or present), and isn't going to prime your IP. The IP isn't pumping when the engine isn't cranking. All I can see that it might do is jiggle loose a sticky plunger sleeve, and allow it to return to its normal idle position.

The IP regulates the amount of fuel into the injectors by changing the effective stroke of the injector pump. It does this by moving a plunger sleeve that determines when, during the plunger stroke, to spill the excess pump volume.

When the fuel cutoff knob is pulled out, the plunger sleeve is allowed to move all the way to the extreme below idle position, and the plunger stroke is spilled immediately, and so is effectively zero. The fuel cutoff knob doesn't control what you might think of as a valve. Think of it more as setting the fuel flow from the plunger pump far less than the idle amount. [On some vehicles I have worked on, notably, Case tractors, the cutoff literally moves the idle screw stop out of position, and lets the control lever drop below idle, stalling the engine.]

I'm pretty sure your friend the mechanic's advice relates to a problem that happens to deuces when the accessory switch is accidentally left on, and the fuel tank pump keeps the 7 PSI pressure up all night long. If there is some leakage in the IP, fuel can slowly drip, drip, drip into the combustion chamber of one of the cylinders, and could cause hydro-locking.

That issue, and the possibility of a leaking head gasket, caused the Head Shed's recommendation to crank the engine with the fuel turned off for a couple of seconds before turning the fuel on and starting the engine. I believe that is what your friend was remembering.... possibly only partially.

Look, regardless of what your book says; what I described worked perfectly for My Deuce. What other's vehicles will do I don't know. Would imagine it depends on engine condition/IP condition/who's had their greasy #$%^ beaters on it.

I'm not using a book. This all comes from the squishyware between my ears.

I'm not on here to compete; just to share some info that worked on my ride. You're info just seemed a bit textbook and like you have no experience wrenching on this kind of iron.

In my business, I write a lot...all technical stuff. That might have something to do with why I sound like a textbook. Particularly when I am trying to be precise.

But with that, what is your experience? I"m be more than happy to share mine as well.

I am an engineer, and a shade tree mechanic. I have been turning wrenches for some 40 odd years now. At some point, I have rebuilt, or repaired every system in tractors, cars, trucks, skid loaders, forklifts, and backhoes that I employ. I am fairly new to deuces, but they are just old fashioned diesel trucks. Of which I am quite familiar.

-Chuck

 

[OneCool70Deuce]

Lead Design Engineer

Drove the Deuce to work this morning...did the same procedure we have been discussing for the past day or so and it worked flawlessly again.

Interesting you profess to have worked on everything...not surprised at all.

I'll leave the rest of the answers to you seeings how you've done it all.

I too am an Engineer; I design things like Engine Management systems; spent years on engine dyno's and am fully aware with how both gas and diesel engines work.

I make it possible for shade tree mechanics like yourself to install new technology into old iron.

40years of working on equipment is a long time; you should be proud to now know it all.

 

[stumps]

Drove the Deuce to work this morning...did the same procedure we have been discussing for the past day or so and it worked flawlessly again.

Good, then you should be happy!

Me? I'd take the IP apart and fix it. I never liked doing ritual work arounds, like jiggling the handle on the toilet so it would stop running on.

-Chuck

 

[derby]

Everyone has an opinion and knowledge based on there own experiance. I think we all will learn from both of you. Now shake hands and let's learn some more. I have been in this thread war before and it can bring hard feelings between two or more members. We need to stick together.

 

[Lax]

OneCool70Deuce,
I appreciate all your help and suggestions. I tried your system today with the stop engine knob and I had no more luck then before. I even jumped out of the truck and yelled BEETLEJUICE, BEETLEJUICE, BEETLEJUICE!! That did not work either. I think I will go back to a more conventional fix. I appreciate it though.

hklvette,
I did make some progress today. After I cranked it until the batteries (new) almost died I got it started. I had to get it started and get the air tanks filled so the buzzer would stop then I could hear what was happening when I turned the accessory switch on and then the heater switch. After it ran a while to charge the batteries I turned it off. Then I turned the accessory switch on and could hear clearly the fuel pump of course. Next I pushed the flame heater switch to see if I could hear anything and praying I could. Guess what? I could clearly hear the flame heater fuel pump working on and off with me pushing the switch on and off. That is a GREAT relief! So now I know that at least the pump works. I am very happy about that. Now on to the next step.

I'll call you tomorrow after 1500 hours for advice. Thanks everyone. I'll keep you all up to date on my progress to get this going in the cold.

 

[saddamsnightmare]

March 3rd, 2010.


Gentlemen, Gentlemen, Gentlemen???!!!!

Is it gonna be pies or pistols at twenty paces? Lately we have all been getting a mite touchy around here and civility seems to have gone by the wayside. Because the deuce and the multifuel engine has been around as long as it has, and given all the different mechanics and drivers who have worked on or operated our trucks, I might suspect, quite unscientifically, that perhaps our trucks have developed quirks?
In the best of all possible worlds, they'd all work flawlessly and we'd have little or nothing to discuss, unfortunately, the deuces seem not to thrive on normal, unspectacular behavior, at least mine doesn't. When I think I know her, she finds some other wrinkle rarely found in a manual or outside an old motorpool sargeants brain... That's when the search for solutions begins, at least for me. Mine comes up with 6 out of eight starts below 32*F, the other two? The starter solenoid is shot and doesn't feel like making proper contact! Solution, get a spryer mechanic to pull the starter to get the numbers off the starter so I can order a new solenoid..... OR just put a new starter and solenoid on the truck and kill some other potential PIA gremlins at the same time. IF you wanta be rich, don't buy a deuce, a bottle or a blonde.... If you wanta learn something different, try a deuce, a bottle and a blonde.... (or whatever floats your boat, so to speak).

I vote for civillity in the posts, as I generally learn a great deal by looking over your shoulders while you beat the gremlins to death.....


Cheers,
Kyle F. McGrogan

 

[OneCool70Deuce]

Salude to Kyle...

Civility can be had; just didn't like being given credit for words that I did not speak.

I'm sure all of our trucks would benefit the overhaul of some very old and worn out parts, but unfortunately this is not my only project; so sometimes the most logical solution will have to wait...that was all I was really trying to get at...
Enough is enough...

I appreciate all the information I've gathered from this site so far and I'm sure it will help me in the future as well.

Back to the grind...

 

[stumps]

My Deuce has the same issues; I definately plan on checking out the manifold heater deal; HOWEVER, something I did yesterday to make my truck start almost as fast as my 1ton Ford Powerstroke, was...

turn the main switch to the on position,

hear tank pump running,

carefully pull stop engine lever,

release stop engine lever,

push heater switch, give throttle 1/8 hold and then crank.

It started in less than two revs and smoothed out faster than she ever has...

I've got new fuel filters and just haven't installed them yet.

This little procedure was done in 45deg weather the other day.

The words you never spoke...

 

[OneCool70Deuce]

You really have nothing better to do huh...

I TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THOSE WORDS AND ALWAYS HAVE.

I don't take the responsibility for you stating to turn the idle speed up or down. That is what you stated and I refuse to acknowledge that I said something that came from you there Chucky.

I realize that you may not remember or are too short witted to keep up with your posts, so do yourself a favor and stop...

You should go get another bag of Cheetoes, your Beanbag and start copying stuff out of your service manual again...

 

[stumps]

I have said nothing about adjusting the idle speed screw. I said bring the idle up a little bit. I expected you to do it with the throttle.

Whenever your argument requires you to attack the person, rather than the ideas, you have left the debate a loser, and returned to the school playground.

Bye

-Chuck

 

[Lax]

I'm making some progress with my flame heater with the great help of hklvette. I have proven that I am getting plenty of fuel to the flame heater but after investigating it seems I am NOT getting a spark from the spark plug that should be lighting the fire. I disconnected the plug wire and tried to get the wire end to arc with a ground and it did not so it looks like I am not getting any electricity to the wire end. I followed the wire to something on top of the engine on the passenger side (photos attached). You can see the plug wire end is still disconnected from the plug (directly below it) if that helps you understand easier. Does anyone know what the plug wire is connected to or how I can start checking backwards to the source of the electricity?. Where is the fuse/breaker box this would be connected to? Any ideas would help. Thank you!