strange battery symptoms while troubleshooting

[alger]

hey guys, first of all let me thank youy for the resources andknowledge you have made available. I am a first time owner of a d30 m1008 1987. i bought it weith the intention of using it as a work and hunting vehicle. it has only 40k miles, so i figure it was a great deal. to cut to tyhe chase, i've spent $3000 on electrical and transmission repairs in 2 local shops, and i still have no way to transport landscape materials to sites. this is the busiest time of year, therefore i didnt research until mandatory. i have since read tms and searched threads for hours, and understand much more than before. the cuerrent starter is the 3rd installed in 3 months, and i await small claims court to be reimbursed. yesterday it ran great till afternoon, when it suddenly wouldn't turn over again. when i put the battery on charger it reads 100%, but seems to cycle and drop to 0 every 10-30 seconds. i bought a new battery, and it does not do this on charger. i installed new battery, but symptoms persist. All my $ are invested ion this beast, and i have little confidence in local shops. also, my work season rushes by without any $ comming in, so i ask for advise. i am saturated with info read in the past few days on here, and have a plan i would like to ask if it is a feasible and optimal plan. I would also be grateful for any shortcuts or ideas to get me going again.

history
bought truck erly this year. drove it home..would turn over next am but not start.
had towed to shop.
glow plug r&r
u-joint
starter relay r&r
starter assembly
transmission assembly (bell housing bolts were sheared. had to tap)
water temp sender r&r
repair wires to alt, glow plugs, and lights
install relay on both alts & glow plugs

drove it for 2 days after 75 days in shop for above fix, then wouldn't turn over.
replace bulbs and flashers
replace vacuum control valve on tranny
replace starter (warrantied)
another six weeks later, i got it and it seemed to run fine. Drove it until
last wk it wouldn't turn over again. Hear click, but nothing else.
noticed blinkers went out night before.
bought new battery and installed to no avail.
sprnt crapload of time reading and learning on this site.

plan of attack:
1. reinstall new battery? old one was tested at parts store and test said it was good, could def use $ on other parts, but can find no intel about "bouncing" on charger. should i stay with new?
2. replace glow plug relay ech gar109.
3. install doghead upgrade.
4. check, clean and lube all connections.
5. pray

the mechanics seem to be fixing symptoms and not the problem. i read a thread that said multiple things can cause starter issues is there a step by step guide i could follow? i am not a mechanic, but i do rebuild motorcycles for restoration. i ask for guidance so i don't burn up a replaced part "downstream" of real issue. your help is greatly appreciated.

 

[dependable]

I was burning out starter solenoids every 5 or 6 months on a 1028 in my work fleet. Assumed defective parts. It wasn't until one of my crew noticed a spark under the truck when I started it after dark in winter. Turned out the starter heat shield was fraying into starter cable. the arc was creating premature solenoid failure. May not be your problem, but something to check, or something similar, especially if a bunch of different folks recently worked on it.

 

[Ken_86gt]

Are you sure that you have a 24v starter and not a 12v? With the amount of work done to the truck I wonder if the wiring is anywhere close to stock. If not it will be much harder to troubleshoot.

I don't understand your battery problem- if it tests good it probably is.

Any chance of a video walk around under the hood of the truck? You could try to show us all of the wiring as best possible.

 

[alger]

it very well may be converted. none of my paperwork /invoices specify. I did notice the 4 post solenoid said 12v. It does not seem to have been replaced recently. The batteries are hooked + to -, and the leads are connected to the - of the back battery. As for the battery, i put the new battery on charger today, and it seems to be cycling as well. New charger, so that may be its overcharge safety or just the way it works. The truck is on one of my sites, so i'll take a vid in the morn, but i have a couple of pics i took yesterday. Thanks again for your help...

 

[nf6x]

I think it's normal for that 4-post solenoid to say 12V. The truck normally has a mix of 12V and 24V stuff on it. If the mechanics who worked on it aren't familiar with the CUCVs weird electrical system, they may be running around in circles and scratching their heads. I think you've come to the right place to figure out what's going on. Welcome to the forum!

 

[mr.travo]

I agree, double check to make sure they put on a 24v starter. You can get a few starts out of a 12v (when hooked up to a 24v system), but it WILL lead to failure.

My 2 pennies,

Travo

 

[M1008driver]

Pics of the batteries will tell if it is 24 or 12 volt. You should know if you bought a 24 or 12 volt starter. You are going to want to do the gp resistor bypass later, but that is probably not your problem.

I am thinking a bad or short in your battery cables. Think grounds first. Also when my M1008 just went click I had a bad spot on my flexplate sometimes called the flywheel and the starter teeth was at the bad spot leaving me stranded after running great before that.

Of course I may be crazy.

 

[alger]

vid from today..def a 24v starter

 

[alger]

well,unless i'm being Shanghied, the problem of the starter is that it was put into a bind by the transmission housing?...as i mentioned before, the bell housing was only held on with one bolt, and was repaired in the first $1700 bill. apparently, the new bolts weren't long enough, abd the housing came loose again and put the starter in a bind?...sounds far fetched to me, bit is that even possible?...this came from the shop that did previous repairs... he says it is running now, and i should take it to a transmission shop for a new tranny housing...is this something i should do? i have restored most of the truck 'cept the tranny and xfer case, and am strangely infatuated with the old girl. i pull 4000lbs regularly, but also drive highways regularly. considering changing the gear ratio to less low end to allow for better mpg...if i have to replace, why not trade for one more suited to my needs?...is there a model comp[atible yall could reccomend? any other advice/upgrades to instrall while drive train is out?...lotdsa questioins, pls answer any yall can..i promise to do my share on here as my knowledge grows,

 

[wayne pick]

alger, After all that work they just noticed there was ony one bolt holding the trans? What is with the solinoid next to the 24v bus? What does it do? It looks to me like there has been some creative wiring performed on your truck. Did they check the starter relay under the dash? Try to find a competent mechanic that is familiar with these trucks. Repair through trial and error has cost you a lot of money! As far as any trans swaps go, if you haul 4000 pounds on a regular basis stay with the th400. A 700r4 will only lower your engine RPM and give you a higher top speed on the highway and is really not a good towing transmission unless your willing to spend a ton of money building it to drag car standards. There are other modifications that have to be done like a different output shaft, an aux cooler and a torque converter lockup controller. Good luck. WCP.

 

[alger]

gotcha...dunno what the mystery solenoid is for, but it def clicks when ignition is turned. couldn't find it in TM's...good to know i'm not completely insane...any references for qualified mechs in Arkansas?...or entire mid-south?...if the starter/electrical is fixed, i am def looking for a new mech...esp for tranny housing issue...i will check for doghead fix when i get her back...is it possible to replace tranny housing w/o whole swap out?

 

[alger]

update...since we paid $600 to get the bolts fixed on the tranny in the original ticket, i asked why they gave, apparently he couldn't find ones long enough, and i forgot to ask, but i'm sure they werent hardened steel bolts. i have only driven 2wks and 150 miles or less, and no offroad (yet)...if i can find the diameter he tapped the housing to, ask what length, surely i can find a few specialty bolts less thn a $1200 rebuilt tranny?...pls advise...and thx again

 

[Ken_86gt]

I don't know what he is tapping- the tranny bolts thread into to the engine block. The bolts are common and should have been available at any auto parts store. If they put the wrong bolts in they should be warrantying their work. Please go to another shop and get a second opinion.

I have seen some rebuilt TH400 trannys on Ebay if you can't find them locally- nothing special about them. Just ask for a diesel 4wd version.

 

[wayne pick]

alger, I forgot to ask, Did those guys break the housing when they tried to mount it to the engine? The trans cannot be "drawn" into the engine by using the bolts. It's a rookie mistake and they should have known not to do that. There are dowel pins on the engine block to assist in alignment. Rotating the flexplate while pushing the trans to the engine will also assist in setting the splines and mate the trans to engine. The two top trans bolts are to be installed last by tilting the engine/trans down slighty and from over the top and rearward use about 2 and 1/2 feet of 3/8 extension to thread and tighten the bolts. Bolting the flexplate to the converter is the last step in the process again rotating the flexplate to match up the mounting tabs on the converter. Looking foward, 8 o'clock is the best position to get a wrench on those bolts. If they did not follow this process, they owe you a transmisson.

 

[M1008driver]

There are only two ways these trucks should be not counting a complete engine change, stock or Roscommon conversion to 12 volt. Any good tranny shop should know how to work on the TH400 transmision. It is one of the most basic trans available.

For what you have paid already you could have a new trans. Further, I would be very concerned about that extra solenoid added by the 24 volt junction bar. What is it and what did they do?

I would be seeking help to convert my truck back to stock so I could troubleshoot problems with the TM's. Sorry. I can understand adding accessories, but changing the starter or charging system has to be one of the two ways or no one can help you.

EDIT- From the video it looks like someone modified your gp system and that is what the extra solenoid is for. (disregard the orange wire with a fuse in my pic. It is for trailer brakes.)

 

[M1008driver]

If your gp's system is working, I would still suspect the starter and flexplate. I would drop the starter and test it or have it tested. Might as well get new starter bolts too. Take a look at the flexplate teeth while it is off.

I still can't believe they hacked your gp system.

EDIT- and make sure your batteries are charged for the next start attempt. You do know the OEM starter and OSGR starter use different brackets, right?

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/692875-post16.html

 

[mistaken1]

Just looking at the still pictures I do not see anything wrong with the glow plug relay. It looks like it has had the 12V conversion and is getting power from the 12V bus.

I would be interested in knowing what is connected to that black relay mounted on fuel filter bracket.

 

[M1008driver]

If you go through the vid manually you can see more. Definitely the 12 volt conversion on the gp relay. Did you trace the wires to the extra solenoid to see where they go? Anything special on the inside of the truck?

Keep us updated if you will please. I still think you have a starter system problem somewhere somehow.

EDIT- It looks like something added to your alternators too. Can you go back and ask the mechanic WTF? Maybe a new version of the doghead mod...

 

[alger]

ok, fellas...got a little more intel...first a little more background as it is relevant...2 days after i bought the truck (the day after it wouldn't start, i was admitted to the hospital and released about 10 days later. My Dad, being the great guy he is, called around to find a diesel mechanic and had it towed in to be worked on so i would be able to hit the season running. At this time, i didn't know the first thing about a diesel, nor a 24 volt system. I knew it was 24V, but there ended my knowledge. Will research before purchase extensively from now on...apparently while Dad was handling it the mech called and told him the estimate and something about removing sheared bolts as the tranny was held by only one bolt and it was amazing i even drove it home. i asked Dad to fill me in on details, and the gest of our conversation was that he felt the mech was being honest and straight with us. I am certainly not accusing him of fraud or lying, but simply cant afford to pay for his error, if that is what it is. The guy i bought the truck from has a yayhoo mech that did work on the starter system, and i am going to ask what they did at the shop. the tranny work, however was done 100% at the reputable shop along with starter, alternator, and other work. When i called and had it taken to him last week he told me the starter was in a bind due to the mounting bolts. I had printed some of the faq's and schematics found here and put in truck to try to help. he was not defensive about the help (i was afraid id be stepping on toes), as i started the convo on the special nature of this beast i am now ****-bent to bring to life. i spoke of the starter relay common issue and he immediately said "we bypassed that"...i saw where it could be bypassed in the faq's, but shouldnt that only be in emergency?...i will clarify with them tomorrow if he meant "replaced"(Doghead) or jumped. Also what exactly they did to the staring system and transmission assy. I'm sure he will get testy when i ask, but am taking the little brother approach to ask and not demand. I know dad would like a peaceful, court free resolution, and so would i, but this is make or break for my entire career. The recession-plauged last 2 yrs have me cut, staggering, and bleeding...phone is ringing and people want my work, but this truck could be my saving grace or knockout blow. I am not going down easy. Thank you yet again. the fact that you all are taking me under your wing in my time of crisis is inspiring to say the least...

edit: would it be breaking board rules/etiquette to scan and post my paid invoices if i black out shop name, address, etc?

 

[M1008driver]

If you turn your key and it does nothing check your battery cable grounds. If it clunks once check your starter. If it tries to start and won't turn over it could be something else like fuel or gp's.

The doghead mod is so easy and takes 10-30 minutes depending on your experience. Some day you may want to undo that mechanics work and do the doghead mod. Probably depends on how much he modified your system.

Is your starter now 12 volt? Make sure because your batteries look like they are still in series for 24 volt. That will kill your starter if it is not 24 volt.

I think you are at your mechanics mercy at this point. I would try to understand the starter relay mod and what he did. Have him explain it to you if you can.

Good luck. You have now exceeded my knowledge level. I hope someone can help you get going.

EDIT- I am not recommending this, but if all else fails there is the Roscommon 12 volt conversion. You don't need a starter relay mod for the conversion. You will need a 12 volt starter for that and it can be bought in town.

http://www.roscommonequipmentcenter.com/news_notes/nn10.pdf