(stupid) pitman arm replacement question.

[Coug]

So my pitman arm has a lot of movement on the steering box. Probably about half an inch of up and down (maybe a little more) at the center link.
The nut was a little loose holding it on, so I tightened it down to spec (185 ft lbs according to the manual)
That didn't really seem to change anything much, so I have a new pitman arm on the way.

My (stupidish) question is, when the nut is tightened down, it it sandwiching the pitman arm against something above the splines, or is it really just there to keep the pitman arm from sliding down off the shaft.
I'm asking because it looks like the nut/washer just push up against a shoulder on the shaft, and not against the pitman arm itself.

M1123 serial 183XXX

 

[Mogman]

The splines are tapered, HOPEFULLY only the pitman arm was damaged.
What you are seeing is likely the fact the pitman arm/steering shaft is damaged (worn) and the nut/washer would have to push it farther up on the shaft

 

[papakb]

When you replace the pitman arm go with the heavier duty MOOG "Problem Solver". There's a significant difference between it and the standard unt. Moog also makes a heavy duty idler arm that matches this one.

AM GENERAL HEAVY DUTY PITMAN ARM 6035179

AM GENERAL HEAVY DUTY IDLER ARM 015394911

 

[mccullek]

So my pitman arm has a lot of movement on the steering box. Probably about half an inch of up and down (maybe a little more) at the center link.
The nut was a little loose holding it on, so I tightened it down to spec (185 ft lbs according to the manual)
That didn't really seem to change anything much, so I have a new pitman arm on the way.

My (stupidish) question is, when the nut is tightened down, it it sandwiching the pitman arm against something above the splines, or is it really just there to keep the pitman arm from sliding down off the shaft.
I'm asking because it looks like the nut/washer just push up against a shoulder on the shaft, and not against the pitman arm itself.

M1123 serial 183XXX

There is supposed to be a space between the pitman arm and the gear box. If you get it too tight, you might not be able to get a removal tool in there. Those things are next to impossible to remove without a pitman arm removal tool.

 

[Coug]

When you replace the pitman arm go with the heavier duty MOOG "Problem Solver". There's a significant difference between it and the standard unt. Moog also makes a heavy duty idler arm that matches this one.

AM GENERAL HEAVY DUTY PITMAN ARM 6035179

AM GENERAL HEAVY DUTY IDLER ARM 015394911

yes, I've already gone with the moog problem solver stuff for the replacement tie rod ends and idler arm. The Pitman arm I have on order from HPG is the moog problem solver version.

I completely removed the nut and lock washer and looked at everything, and the pitman arm slid down on it's own as I wiggled the tire. I tightened it all back up again and appear to have less play now, but already ordered the replacement and I'm getting tired of working on my steering system.
All the tie rods are new within 500 miles, along with the idler arm. Pitman arm I must have screwed up installing the current one as it's only a year old, so I'll keep a closer eye on it from now on. New tires are on order and will be here in about 10 days or so (Feltz tire 2018+ BFG 100% load range D tires)

For the past 6 months I've had the occasional death wobble at low speeds. My local Les Schwab is totally useless for troubleshooting the steering, as they refuse to actually check any of the steering components past turning the steering wheel with everything on the ground (which had a few inches play in it at the time) and just repeatedly told me it needs an alignment (which they had done about 7k miles before)

Ball joints appear to be good (raised in the air and pry bar to check for movement) so I'm running out of things that could be the issue.

Once the tires are in there is a different les schwab in the area with the Hunter tire balancer that I'll take them to for an actual balance, not just relying on the centramatics. Current tires are GY MT and are showing some issues, but not sure if the tires are the source or just a symptom. Hopefully this other Les Schwab does a better job with alignments than the other one.

 

[Mogman]

That loose pitman arm can certainly cause/make worse any shimmy issues, not as loose is not good enough, that connection between the pitman arm and the steering shaft must be absolutely tight, zip/zero/nada play

 

[Coug]

That loose pitman arm can certainly cause/make worse any shimmy issues, not as loose is not good enough, that connection between the pitman arm and the steering shaft must be absolutely tight, zip/zero/nada play

agreed. I don't expect I will be driving it except in emergency situation until the new one comes in.

 

[mccullek]

agreed. I don't expect I will be driving it except in emergency situation until the new one comes in.

If you look at the shaft coming out of the gear box, notice there are notches as well as the splines. Make sure you line up those notches with the notches on your pitman arm and if you get them right, the pitman arm should slide on rather easily due to the fact the shaft is tapered. If you have problems sliding the arm onto the shaft, then you likely don't have the notches lined up properly.

If you drove the pitman arm onto the shaft previously without lining things up properly, your shaft could be damaged and it may never take a good grip again, no matter if you put a new pitman arm on there or not, so be careful with those notches and inspect them closely to be sure they line up properly. Check the splines on your shaft and make sure they are still in good shape would be my suggestion. If so, then the loose fit is probably a bad pitman arm.

I just pulled and rebuilt my gear box, so I just went through all of this myself, so it is all fresh on my mind.

 

[TNDRIVER]

yes, I've already gone with the moog problem solver stuff for the replacement tie rod ends and idler arm. The Pitman arm I have on order from HPG is the moog problem solver version.

I completely removed the nut and lock washer and looked at everything, and the pitman arm slid down on it's own as I wiggled the tire. I tightened it all back up again and appear to have less play now, but already ordered the replacement and I'm getting tired of working on my steering system.
All the tie rods are new within 500 miles, along with the idler arm. Pitman arm I must have screwed up installing the current one as it's only a year old, so I'll keep a closer eye on it from now on. New tires are on order and will be here in about 10 days or so (Feltz tire 2018+ BFG 100% load range D tires)

For the past 6 months I've had the occasional death wobble at low speeds. My local Les Schwab is totally useless for troubleshooting the steering, as they refuse to actually check any of the steering components past turning the steering wheel with everything on the ground (which had a few inches play in it at the time) and just repeatedly told me it needs an alignment (which they had done about 7k miles before)

Ball joints appear to be good (raised in the air and pry bar to check for movement) so I'm running out of things that could be the issue.

Once the tires are in there is a different les schwab in the area with the Hunter tire balancer that I'll take them to for an actual balance, not just relying on the centramatics. Current tires are GY MT and are showing some issues, but not sure if the tires are the source or just a symptom. Hopefully this other Les Schwab does a better job with alignments than the other one.

Hard to screw up a pitman arm instal......... my guess a tire is working over the arm.
When you get ready to balance your new tires I would suggest finding an off road shop 0r the Loves guys down at exit 72, and I would take them in off the truck, spin 4 tires throw them back in the back of the truck. Easy work for them, nothing they are not used to. AND.... if you have a level concrete floor I can explain how to align it with just a few $$$ worth of tools, nothin fancy. My two cents.

 

[87m998]

Thats to bad about Les Schwab , Must be one that doesn't work on semi trucks. The one around me did a great job balancing my tires and siping them. Guy that did the work got a work out. Its not hard to tighten up the steering box, there are a few video's on it.

 

[Coug]

Hard to screw up a pitman arm instal......... my guess a tire is working over the arm.
When you get ready to balance your new tires I would suggest finding an off road shop 0r the Loves guys down at exit 72, and I would take them in off the truck, spin 4 tires throw them back in the back of the truck. Easy work for them, nothing they are not used to. AND.... if you have a level concrete floor I can explain how to align it with just a few $$$ worth of tools, nothin fancy. My two cents.

I've done the string alignment method before, and read the method in the manuals. For a vehicle that lives off road as much as on, they are more than good enough. My truck does more on road time than off road, so it's worth the money to me to take it to a shop and have them do it.

I hadn't considered the Loves. If the Les Schwab that supposedly has the Hunter balancer refuses me, then I'll probably take it down to Loves instead.

 

[Coug]

also to consider that the military usually limits the speed soldiers are allowed to drive them. I know in Korea we had convoy speeds limited to 35mph for 5 vehicles or less, and 25mph for more than 5 vehicles.

I've driven it for a while with steering system issues, including higher speeds (where it never experienced any shaking; the steering was just kind of sloppy especially in rutted roadways).

A proper alignment will also give me the best tire life (not that I expect it to be much of an issue at less than 5k miles driven on it a year, but every bit helps)

Only other thing I'm debating right now is whether or not to get the tires siped. I'm kind of in the middle about it. Properly designed tires shouldn't need siping, but I also tend to drive the truck more in extreme/harsh conditions so there might be benefit to it

 

[TNDRIVER]

I've done the string alignment method before, and read the method in the manuals. For a vehicle that lives off road as much as on, they are more than good enough. My truck does more on road time than off road, so it's worth the money to me to take it to a shop and have them do it.

I hadn't considered the Loves. If the Les Schwab that supposedly has the Hunter balancer refuses me, then I'll probably take it down to Loves instead.

Don't use the string myself, plumb bob, tape measure, laser level, fabricated aluminum bar to bridge the wheel plus a digital protractor for caster and camber. Takes me about two hours. Adjusting the tow and thrust on the backend can be confusing if you have never done rears before. MUCH cheaper in the long run. My two cents.

 

[Vapor Trail]

TND, do you want to explain how to do it? It would be useful for me. Thank you.

 

[mccullek]

TND, do you want to explain how to do it? It would be useful for me. Thank you.

I would be interested in hearing how to do this as well. Thanks!

 

[TNDRIVER]

TND, do you want to explain how to do it? It would be useful for me. Thank you.

I would be interested in hearing how to do this as well. Thanks!

You will need about a 26 inch piece of 1 inch square aluminum, epoxy, at least one 9,10 inch torpedo level with a laser and 2 carpenter's plumb bobs a digital protractor, nothing fancy,and heavy (mason) string , enough wax paper and "shiny" magazine pages (10 sheets each wheel, you can use them one end at a time but is easier to do both ends at a time, you alternate the wax paper and pages for the tires to move on as they are adjusted. And they still take a little "bumping" to arrive at the correct numbers. If the tires set on the floor the side wall will "twist" and throw off the measurement. With the OZ tires you can drop a "string" with the plumb bob from the center of the tire(hangs in the center of the tread blocks) to the floor in front and rear of the tires(front and rear) tape the floor, mark the spot and measure front and back for toe in front and toe out back. The piece of aluminum is cut slightly longer than a rim diameter and two short pieces epoxied on the ends so as to set just inside the edge of the rim. If you have the MT tires (I have one of each) the aluminum should be cut about the diameter of the tire and used to drop your string and plumb bob to the floor for your toe measurement. This needs to be measured carefully , epoxy your rim tabs and then cut the ends to equal lengths. Does not have to be exactly the tire diameter but equal from the edge of the rim on both ends. Place the aluminum bar against the wheel straight up and down, place the protractor against it and MAGIC you have the camber.
Now the fun part..... Adjust the rear toe out per spec. Place the aluminum bar parallel to the floor on the face of either rear tire, use the laser level to shoot a beam to the front tire... measure at the center of the front wheel where the beam strikes, do the same on the other side. If they are the same at this point go buy a lottery ticket. They probably will not be,. The idea is to move the toe on both sides left or right as to have the laser measurement equal at the front hub. This "squares" the back to the front. Keep in mind the backs toe "out" , the beam spreads out back to front. Equal distance on each side, toe out to spec and you got it.
You can skip the wax paper if you want to role the truck fore and aft to relax the tires but I work alone on this and the paper is easier for me. Extra hands for the laser and tape come in handy small children LOVE this stuff!
When my tech guy comes buy I'll shoot some pics of my stuff, IT'S SIMPLE just stop and think about it.
Any questions shoot me a DM and I'll send you a phone number. And caster is taken off the hub inspection plate with the protractor.

 

[Coug]

So now it's getting frustrating.
Installed the new Moog problem solver pitman arm.
It doesn't go on very far. With the nut torqued down to 186 ft lbs, and no lock washer installed, the nut is on the shaft with only a couple threads past it. In other words about 1/4" or so further down than the old pitman arm was.
Went and bought a puller and pulled it back off and inspected everything. As far as I can tell the splines are lined up properly, as there was no signs of any splines being damaged at all.
Was extra careful when lining everything up, and it tightens down to the same spot. Can't use the lock washer because there just isn't enough room on the shaft for it and the nut.
Will keep an eye on it and keep the torque wrench in the truck with me.

Unless I'm somehow missing something, the new one is just that much tighter than the old one was and won't fit on any further.

 

[gringeltaube]

Will keep an eye on it and keep the torque wrench in the truck with me.

That. Leave the locknut (sorry, lockwasher that is...) out and check your torque frequently, especially at the beginning, after every (short) trip.
Eventually (and gradually) that arm will slide up a few more mm until it stopped moving any further. Pretty sure at that point it got as tight as can be (as if shaft and arm were one piece).

If after all, the lockwasher still doesn't fit, I would simply remove the nut, put plenty of red Loctite on the threads and torque down to specs.




Edit: meant to say lockwasher!

 

[Thumper580]

So now it's getting frustrating.
Installed the new Moog problem solver pitman arm.
It doesn't go on very far. With the nut torqued down to 186 ft lbs, and no lock washer installed, the nut is on the shaft with only a couple threads past it. In other words about 1/4" or so further down than the old pitman arm was.
Went and bought a puller and pulled it back off and inspected everything. As far as I can tell the splines are lined up properly, as there was no signs of any splines being damaged at all.
Was extra careful when lining everything up, and it tightens down to the same spot. Can't use the lock washer because there just isn't enough room on the shaft for it and the nut.
Will keep an eye on it and keep the torque wrench in the truck with me.

Unless I'm somehow missing something, the new one is just that much tighter than the old one was and won't fit on any further.

I'm assuming you can get the cotter pin through the bottom of the threaded section??

 

[Coug]

I'm assuming you can get the cotter pin through the bottom of the threaded section??

the castle nut is on the other end. The steering output shaft just uses a washer and regular not, not a castle nut.