Sunday winching gone wrong...

[jimk]

I told them not to balance mine. He asked why I said it was a low speed shaft and for off road use. Still cost more than I expected, maybe 225, but then I needed both inner yokes and didn't ask my pal Arron.

 

[jimk]

I would go withHEAVIER u-joints and shaft, so when things give, the shear pin gives, that shaft is to close to the pan to take a chance on busting a hole, this would be a BAD day

The stock (rearward) yoke ears are very close to the t-case (1/8"?). The case is dished out too.

 

[doghead]

OK, so here's where I went wrong! I looked at and followed the instructions painted on my floor(not the data plate on the dash). My floor is painted so that I did not see the word IN, with the seat down. In the pic below, the seat is flipped up, revealing the other arrow and word IN. I was seeing OUT and an arrow forward!

Now, back to the first pull with the cable treaded through the trolley and tensioner. We pulled all the cable off the drum to get to the track hoe. Then, when I engaged the lever as the arrow on the floor indicates as in, I was actually rotating the drum the wrong way, but since all the cable was out, it still wound up the cable(wrong direction) and allowed the cable to rub on the back edge of the trolley frame ,causing the cable break and inability for the trolley to change directions.

I should have looked at the data plate to confirm the PTO positions.

I also should have got out after the cable was taut, and looked everything over before pulling hard.

 

[treeguy]

You guys mention that the pto shafts are spinning at a low rpm, but what do you call low? You might want to go with balancing, esp. if the shop already has the shaft. The last time I looked at my spinning pto shaft, it looked like it spins a lot faster than I'd call low rpm. The gearing in the winch is what will redirect that speed into slow-mo (yea, I know we have hi and low in the pto, that sounds like a song). Right, the winch shaft doesn't spin as fast as a axle drive shaft, but she'll get going esp. if some one throttles it.
DH, I think I'd still go with the wall thickness the shop recomends unless its under what you previously had.
Are you saying you wound the winch the wrong way so that the cable didn't lay in to the groove where the end is bolted, meaning that the cable bent sharply back the other way on the sharper edge? I'd say that edge would make a nice sharp cable knife. When the cable broke, how long was the shorter broken end?


I realize that the pto shaft doesn't spin as fast as other high speed shafts, but what I was trying to say is that it might spin fast enough to benifit from being balanced. (since it does spin faster than a crawl)

 

[doghead]

When the cable broke, there was about 25' on the drum. It is obvious to me now, the cable broke because of the dragging over the rounded edge of the trolley frame. There are serious scrapes in the frame now(and were not there before).

There is no sharp edge near that hole.

This was the first time I have used the level winder and tensioner(it was all rebuilt this spring).

 

[jimk]

You guys mention that the pto shafts are spinning at a low rpm, but what do you call low?

Its spinning pretty good but not like a car driveshaft which may be going 10x faster at 60mph and needs to be safe at 120mph. You can see the pto rotation, fast as it may seem to be, but a car drive shaft is a blur at 20mph.

High speed driveshafts spin faster so they can be smaller and still get the same power thru. The Stalwart has 4 small solid shafts feeding power into 4.5:1 two stage planetary gear reduction hubs. One reason they did this was there was no room beside the fuel tank for 2 fat slower turning shafts.

ps. also, the bevel boxes (ring/pinion) these shafts feed can then be quite small (about the size of a cantaloupe). This maximizes ground clearance (the drive shaft is few inches above the floor).

 

[Recovry4x4]

A splendiforous learning experience here. I hope all that read this take heed of the lessons.

 

[Hasbeen]

treeguy,

I`m kind of like you on the "low speed" terminology. There`s still a lot of mass moving pretty fast.
I`m not sure what the specs are on the pto ratio, but as a general rule a mechanical winch application would call for a ratio of around 50% of engine speed. Or maybe a little less for a high torque application. Where the main drive shaft is turning at "direct" engine rpm, or even higher in an overdrive application. So Ithink the low speed term is comparative.
The two speed pto will change these rules a little, but I would think they wouldn`t vary much.
The quality of driveline components, and seamless tubing
nowadays makes it easier to support the argument from people that build but not balance drivelines "if it`s straight it doesn`t need to be balanced"
I would almost agree with that.
I used to have a chart that came with a piece of dynamic balancing equipment that list the equivalent forces produced by 1 gram of weight rotating 1 inch from center at different rpm. It was incredible.
No wonder it knocks out seals and bearings (even the minor vibrations that you hear more than feel)

Not trying to hijack your thread doghead, and good luck on the repairs.
Looks like it turned into a "life lesson" or OJT
Usually when I break something while trying to help someone out. I look up and everybody else is long gone.

I hope you`re getting support for the repairs.

Hasbeen

 

[jimk]

The ratio of my V's Braden LU2 is 31:1. I'm not sure about the PTO but it operates well below engine redline.

The loads increase at an exponential rate. It takes a while before they become significant.

 

[rickf]

Just goes to show you are human like the rest of us. It also shows that you don't make excuses for a screwup.

Rick

OK, so here's were I went wrong! I looked at and followed the instructions painted on my floor(not the data plate on the dash). My floor is painted so that I did not see the word IN, with the seat down. In the pic below, the seat is flipped up, revealing the other arrow and word IN. I was seeing OUT and an arrow forward!

Now, back to the first pull with the cable treaded through the trolley and tensioner. We pulled all the cable off the drum to get to the track hoe. Then, when I engaged the lever as the arrow on the floor indicates as in, I was actually rotating the drum the wrong way, but since all the cable was out, it still wound up the cable(wrong direction) and allowed the cable to rub on the back edge of the trolley frame ,causing the cable break and inability for the trolley to change directions.

I should have looked at the data plate to confirm the PTO positions.

I also should have got out after the cable was taught, and looked everything over before pulling hard.

 

[73m819]

May not need to be balanced, but I would, why not, having a shaft built, might as well get it balanced, I'd want the best shaft I can get

 

[Squirt-Truck]

DH, as we say in the forensics group, always takes more than one thing to go wrong at the same time.
That is great that you discovered the problem. Stuff happens.
To respond to your earlier question, I have used the winch and level wind for years, never ever even has an itty bitty problem with the level winder reversing. We have loaded the winch to capacity many times. (As evidenced in my consumption of shear pins, some of which you are to bring me at the rally....) I do NOT abuse the winch system, but when I say we fully load it I mean fully load it, generally we have a Dillon Dyno in the line so we know what the loads actually are. The recommendation to have the winder reverse before reaching the end flange is good, BUT not more than 1/2 rope diameter. If it fails to place a rope lay at the drum end the next lay will drop in and pinch, not good.
The factory stops, IF you have the original stops in place, have way more than enough adjustment to meet the reverse requirement. (I to have not had any success in locating any instructions in a TM.) We use the winches at work and for play, we diagnose failures of winches, hoist, ropes, and operators for a living. Safe operation is dependant on proper equipment operation and use.

FWIW the pins on Squirt extend 1-11/16 inch's into the winder still have 5/8" inches more available adjustment. If they are any shorter then they are to short.

 

[doghead]

I noticed today, my stop bolts are different on either side. One looks like the square headed bolt shown in the Parts TM, and the other looks to be a standard grade 8 hex head bolt. I'll measure the settings of them soon, and compare that to yours. Thanks

 

[jaxsof]

this place has real DOM in the wall thickness you're looking for. And they're reasonable, too

https://www.speedymetals.com/s-204-round-tube.aspx

 

[R Racing]

Well, I just found a source for the end that was damaged. I'll call the shop tomorrow and see what they found and ask if they want me to supply them with that end.

As for the wall thickness, I think they implied that they only had one thickness available in that diameter. So a clean cut and measure is needed to identify the stock tube thickness. I just didn't want it to be thinner(assuming thinner is less strong).

I have mine out of my m816 if you want me to measure the length of it.

 

[doghead]

For future reference and to confirm the dimensions, yes, please do post the measurements.

 

[Stan]

[ I want a safe and serviceable shaft when I'm done..[/QUOTE] Doghead


Words to live by.

 

[spicergear]

My apologies...no pic today. Hopefully I'll get to farm tomorrow. My stops were yellow zinc coated factory units and the level wind had never, EVER been used. Still had perfect paint on all rollers and bridge roller. The stops on mine were shorter that what it sounds like you guys are speaking as my trolly could travel...what memory feels was like maybe an inch to inch and a half further than where the cable center at the spool's side would be.

 

[R Racing]

Ok I have 59"s from flange to flange , I will try and upload some pictures but I have been having problems doing so recently and get kicked out. Also its very important that when you reassemble the shaft that the fixed crosses line up ! Ok its kicking me out again . If someone could post them for me please PM me.

 

[doghead]

This am I called Fleet Pride and they instantly told me I needed to talk to the manager. He said they "cannot" make my shaft. It is too long for a 2" shaft. He asked my rpm and HP. I asked him to measure my old tube, and simply make it the same or heavier walled. He said he would not do it. He then said he might do it for me, but with no warranty. I said fine. He said he was looking at my old shaft tube and could see it was .083" wall(by eye, even thought the other guys measured the broken edge yesterday and said it looked like it was .120") I mentioned that and he said he was sure he was right. So, I asked him to make it with .0120 wall tube(even though that means another yoke end and machining my splined hub to fit). He said it may be done today.

Also, they did not find the damaged end(winch end) even after I gave them a Dana part number(2-4-883 dana from the TM). Yesterday I confirmed that Saturn Surplus had a few ends, so, today I ordered all they had and I will install the new end myself(just a U joint connection).