Survival 109 build

[tim292stro]

I dug a little and found this thread that has a good diagram.

If you are duplicating the air system is there any way you can duplicate the compressor too? If not you might be able to find a dual cylinder air compressor where each cylinder matches the original compressor CFM and split the outputs (only easily possible if it is externally plumbed).

I am building an auxiliary air system for the XM1027 (a CUCV clone not a Deuce). For that I am putting a full compressor volume safety valve at the compressor (175psi, system design 150psi), an air dryer (has a check valve built-in), and a check valve at the tank (want the storage volume protected from hose leaks). The 10Gallon tank gets a 175psi safety valve ("check the checker" type protection), and an automatic drain valve in addition to the pull-chain type drain valve).

Maybe we should back up a bit to what you want to use the new air system for, and work the design from a "requirements" approach?

 

[frank8003]

Don't you just love the times we live in
Woke up today and IR alive
It don't get much better than that ..............

I give five stars out of five

"Legal Disclaimer: My comments on this board are based on my personal experiences and life lessons - I speak as a private party, not as the official or un-official representative of any entity, organization, religion, enterprise, government. Don't try this at home. Your mileage may vary. Model shown includes options. Past performance does not reflect actual capability or intelligence, and often doesn't reflect reality. I'm off my meds. Don't listen to a darn thing I say, you've been warned!"

And I was still listening to what SHE said!

 

[tim292stro]

...My question ( one of many) is should there be check valves after the "Y" from the compressor and before the tank sets...

I'd at least spend some time thinking about the failure modes possible by adding parts to the system: Air lines burst or get cut, what happens? Check valve gets stuck open from one half, what happens? Governor fails to stop the compressor at high-pressure, what happens? As a general rule of thumb I'd say "yes" to a check valve to the inlet of each tank. Any time a device might prevent flow to a tank (valve stuck shut), an over pressure blow-off valve to protect against catastrophic failure is critical too. Air should come in the way it's meant to come in and only go out the way it's meant to go out.

...Had thought of the longer pressure build time, but other than longer compressor cycles, didn't see an issue. No MV inspections per se in my state...

This is the first thing I thought of why I read that line:

The letter being you don't have inspections in your state, the spirit being why the would do the inspections if they did have them (safety...).

...If I drain both wet tanks daily, is an air drier critical? OEM on the deuce didn't have them, trying to stay simple as possible. I do drain every day of use...

Air dryers try to take entrained moisture out of compressed air, the issue with compressed air giving up entrapped moisture is where that happens, which is anywhere the pressure reduces. Think about a truck with air cylinders on the wheel ends (I'm pretty sure this does not apply to your deuce) - the moisture will come out of suspension in the entire circuit down-stream of the regulation valve (pedal). This means that if there is moisture in the system after the valve and it gets to below freezing, you can literally freeze up valves and brake cylinders with ice from water that just came out of the air. Would you agree that the worst time to find out your brake valves are frozen is after a long cold non-use of them (like after climbing a hill after a long flat and going down the back side...)?

Older systems used alcohol evaporators kind of like adding anti-freeze to the system to dissolve ice - but this is basically accepting that water will be in your air system. The industry moved to desiccant air dryers with a purge-cycle (that "PSSSSSsssss" you hear at the end of a compressor cycle on modern trucks/buses/trains), the length of hose/pipe from the compressor to the dryer give the air a little time to cool, rejecting the worst moisture out of suspension (colder air holds less moisture than hot air, much like compressed air holds more water than uncompressed air) which it grabs with a desiccant. At the end of a compression cycle it back purges the desiccant with a bit of air that blows the accumulated moisture out of the dryer.

As to complexity, it doesn't add much - you put it in-line with the compressor to wet-tank circuit, and add a hose/branch to the governor to signal the dryer that the compressor is done. The Bendix AD-9 I linked above doesn't even need a supplemental tank like others and it's REALLY common. As to whether it's needed, I'd say "wanted" is more likely on an OEM system, but if you're already planning on modifying/adding to the system - I recommend bringing more of the air system up to modern standards. Even with daily draining, inspections are recommended in the TM to ensure what water did sit in there for any length of time hasn't compromised the components. A dryer will reduce potential damage and wear IMHO, and even with dryers daily draining "inspections" (Is there a lot of water in there? Is there oil in there?) are required. Cheap insurance.

...I give five stars out of five

"Legal Disclaimer: My comments..."

As funny as that signature is, the part up to "government." is required by my company's web-presence policy. I refer to it often when I talk about anything computers and I re-point-out that my position may come from a biased point of view if I at all talk about products my company or its competitors produce...

 

[rosco]

The work your doing is very interesting. Some observations, in reference to your use of "simplicity" - I think that is good! Off hand, I would say that the need for check valves for the two systems/one compressor is necessary, but isn't there a check valve in there already? Stock compressor should be fine. Having some experience with DOT inspections, Iv'e never heard of minimum buildup times. Few, if any inspectors have any experience with "air/over hydraulics". If you go to a heavy truck store that serves OTR truckers, they have gobs of MFG's literature on their products, but most importantly, they will have schematics in the back, of the various air systems in service. Just ask for it. By studying those systems, it will give you insights on areas that you mighty be able to simplify, and not duplicate (answering the question, about check valves, is an example). I would not install in your vehicle, an air dryer, mostly in the name of simplicity, but also because they are over-rated. The heavy truck industry got by for decades without them. I ran the truck in my avatar, nearly two million miles with nothing but a snifter, and it even gets cold here. I did put a simple heated auto drain valve on the wet tank, so I didn't have to mess with it. Sometimes in a shift/trip, it would freeze in the wet tank, before I got a chance to drain it. As for the trailer hookup, you can probably get by with just what you have and dead end the newer side, but too, you can probably tie both together for the trailer, at the back (with checks), to allow trailer supply/control, through either system, in the event of a major failure of one side.

A Note: My Deuce supplies and controls a full modern air brake trailer (M989), very responsively. I did install a Tractor Protection Valve.

 

[QUADJEEPER]

I dug a little and found this thread that has a good diagram.

If you are duplicating the air system is there any way you can duplicate the compressor too? If not you might be able to find a dual cylinder air compressor where each cylinder matches the original compressor CFM and split the outputs (only easily possible if it is externally plumbed).

I am building an auxiliary air system for the XM1027 (a CUCV clone not a Deuce). For that I am putting a full compressor volume safety valve at the compressor (175psi, system design 150psi), an air dryer (has a check valve built-in), and a check valve at the tank (want the storage volume protected from hose leaks). The 10Gallon tank gets a 175psi safety valve ("check the checker" type protection), and an automatic drain valve in addition to the pull-chain type drain valve).

Maybe we should back up a bit to what you want to use the new air system for, and work the design from a "requirements" approach?

Much clearer to read, but still doesn't show the 2nd air pack.

 

[QUADJEEPER]

I'd at least spend some time thinking about the failure modes possible by adding parts to the system: Air lines burst or get cut, what happens? Check valve gets stuck open from one half, what happens? Governor fails to stop the compressor at high-pressure, what happens? As a general rule of thumb I'd say "yes" to a check valve to the inlet of each tank. Any time a device might prevent flow to a tank (valve stuck shut), an over pressure blow-off valve to protect against catastrophic failure is critical too. Air should come in the way it's meant to come in and only go out the way it's meant to go out.


This is the first thing I thought of why I read that line:
View attachment 538441
The letter being you don't have inspections in your state, the spirit being why the would do the inspections if they did have them (safety...).


Air dryers try to take entrained moisture out of compressed air, the issue with compressed air giving up entrapped moisture is where that happens, which is anywhere the pressure reduces. Think about a truck with air cylinders on the wheel ends (I'm pretty sure this does not apply to your deuce) - the moisture will come out of suspension in the entire circuit down-stream of the regulation valve (pedal). This means that if there is moisture in the system after the valve and it gets to below freezing, you can literally freeze up valves and brake cylinders with ice from water that just came out of the air. Would you agree that the worst time to find out your brake valves are frozen is after a long cold non-use of them (like after climbing a hill after a long flat and going down the back side...)?

Older systems used alcohol evaporators kind of like adding anti-freeze to the system to dissolve ice - but this is basically accepting that water will be in your air system. The industry moved to desiccant air dryers with a purge-cycle (that "PSSSSSsssss" you hear at the end of a compressor cycle on modern trucks/buses/trains), the length of hose/pipe from the compressor to the dryer give the air a little time to cool, rejecting the worst moisture out of suspension (colder air holds less moisture than hot air, much like compressed air holds more water than uncompressed air) which it grabs with a desiccant. At the end of a compression cycle it back purges the desiccant with a bit of air that blows the accumulated moisture out of the dryer.

As to complexity, it doesn't add much - you put it in-line with the compressor to wet-tank circuit, and add a hose/branch to the governor to signal the dryer that the compressor is done. The Bendix AD-9 I linked above doesn't even need a supplemental tank like others and it's REALLY common. As to whether it's needed, I'd say "wanted" is more likely on an OEM system, but if you're already planning on modifying/adding to the system - I recommend bringing more of the air system up to modern standards. Even with daily draining, inspections are recommended in the TM to ensure what water did sit in there for any length of time hasn't compromised the components. A dryer will reduce potential damage and wear IMHO, and even with dryers daily draining "inspections" (Is there a lot of water in there? Is there oil in there?) are required. Cheap insurance.



As funny as that signature is, the part up to "government." is required by my company's web-presence policy. I refer to it often when I talk about anything computers and I re-point-out that my position may come from a biased point of view if I at all talk about products my company or its competitors produce...

That is why I'm asking about check valves, line routing etc. I want to do it right, but not reengineer the system. I will be retaining both over pressure valves, and want to incorporate as much redundancy as reasonably possible. Doubt that an air drier will be in the near future. I understand your points, but I have to draw the line on costs for the time being. I'm trying to create a safer system, and that would help for sure, but budget dictates I hold off for now on that.

 

[QUADJEEPER]

The work your doing is very interesting. Some observations, in reference to your use of "simplicity" - I think that is good! Off hand, I would say that the need for check valves for the two systems/one compressor is necessary, but isn't there a check valve in there already? Stock compressor should be fine. Having some experience with DOT inspections, Iv'e never heard of minimum buildup times. Few, if any inspectors have any experience with "air/over hydraulics". If you go to a heavy truck store that serves OTR truckers, they have gobs of MFG's literature on their products, but most importantly, they will have schematics in the back, of the various air systems in service. Just ask for it. By studying those systems, it will give you insights on areas that you mighty be able to simplify, and not duplicate (answering the question, about check valves, is an example). I would not install in your vehicle, an air dryer, mostly in the name of simplicity, but also because they are over-rated. The heavy truck industry got by for decades without them. I ran the truck in my avatar, nearly two million miles with nothing but a snifter, and it even gets cold here. I did put a simple heated auto drain valve on the wet tank, so I didn't have to mess with it. Sometimes in a shift/trip, it would freeze in the wet tank, before I got a chance to drain it. As for the trailer hookup, you can probably get by with just what you have and dead end the newer side, but too, you can probably tie both together for the trailer, at the back (with checks), to allow trailer supply/control, through either system, in the event of a major failure of one side.

A Note: My Deuce supplies and controls a full modern air brake trailer (M989), very responsively. I did install a Tractor Protection Valve.

Thanks rosco. I don't believe there is a check valve, correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks for the pointers on the available literature. I'm sure I could find it on a web search too. I believe in a safer vehicle, but can't do it all. I'd put in an SRS system ( air bags ) and a modern ABS system if I had unlimited funds. I'm just not secure in dring a single circuit brake system in such a heavy truck. I've been in the automotive repair industry for over 35 years, have had several total brake failures while driving customers vehicles and all were dual circuit master cylinders. But I have found that the MC had already failed in one piston seal so when the second failed, there wasn't a backup to provide brake pressure. It wasn't felt as the pressure in one chamber balanced out the internal leak. So if a dual MC is properly assembled and maintained, that should lower the failure rate.

 

[tim292stro]

You could also do a hydroboost and just get rid of the question marks with the air system completely - keep it for tools and such...

 

[rustystud]

As far as "air-dryers" go, on all modern trucks they are now required. This has been addressed before. All air tanks should have a check valve. Our busses run 8 to 10 air tanks now. The last time they had 4 was in the 1980's. The reason the air tanks are placed about the truck or buss is because of "speed of apply". You will have tanks at each axle for the brake chambers and a relay valve (R-14) . This valve has a small apply line from the "application valve" ( treadle valve). When air is applied from this small line, it opens the larger lines from the air tanks to the brake chambers. Since air moves faster along a smaller line, the lag time is reduced before the brakes apply. Since our deuces use hydraulics, not air to apply the brakes there is no need to have so many tanks. I agree it is nice to have auxiliary tanks for such things as air horns and air guns, but it is not needed for the safe operation of our trucks. The 2 tanks we have now are sufficient . For a more modern system I would get a "air dryer" like the Bendix (which can be bought for $250.00) and a ping tank ( catches the oils from the compressor) and a wet tank. If I towed a lot, I would also get a tank mounted at the back of the deuce for the trailer brakes.
As a mechanic working on modern busses for over 24 years now I can honestly say "keeping it simple" is the best way to go. Our busses are so complicated that it can take days to solve a braking problem. The doors operation effect the brakes. The weight of the bus effects the brakes (ride height). The speed of the bus effects the brakes (Yes they have speed sensors). The weather effects the braking ( ABS). The more crap added to the system just makes for more complications in the operation of the brakes.

 

[rustystud]

These pictures (8 of 15) are from a 10 year old bus we're already phasing out of service. It's just to show you how complicated a modern air system can get. I tried to scan them on my printer but their to big.

 

[frank8003]

Thanks Frank, but have already checked this out, doesn't clearly show the trailer brake air circuit.

Still have the unanswered question about how the trailer air should be connected on a dual air pack system

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...conversion-to-M35a3-dual-circuit-brake-system

post 115 in here
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...ering-Thread&p=1091181&viewfull=1#post1091181


your answer is here post 26
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...LINE-REFERENCE-GUIDE-(Sizes-lengths-fittings)

So you want to know how the air gets from the front to the “doublecheck” valve item #1 on attached fiqure 114.



or maybe I misunderstood the question.
I saw the feed to it inside the port side frame rail or at least that is what I thought it was.

 

[QUADJEEPER]

Still have the unanswered question about how the trailer air should be connected on a dual air pack system

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...conversion-to-M35a3-dual-circuit-brake-system

post 115 in here
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...ering-Thread&p=1091181&viewfull=1#post1091181


your answer is here post 26
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...LINE-REFERENCE-GUIDE-(Sizes-lengths-fittings)

So you want to know how the air gets from the front to the “doublecheck” valve item #1 on attached fiqure 114.

View attachment 538557

or maybe I misunderstood the question.
I saw the feed to it inside the port side frame rail or at least that is what I thought it was.

Thanks Frank. That answers the question.

 

[QUADJEEPER]

Sometimes you have to go through a lot for a little. Wanted to remove the airline from the tanks to the air pack. Ha, not so easy. Remove the spare tire, cut off the inaccessible driver side tank bracket bolts, jack up the 109 body on the passenger side to gain clearance for a wrench on those two bolts. Finally got the line off after removing all of the other ones. Not a ten minute job.

 

[QUADJEEPER]

Had some visitors/morale boosters today. RAYZER and Socom688 came by to check on the 109 progress. Had a good visit. Did some air line tweeking and now seems to have full braking power. Drove it in the yard, so far so good. Road test sometime in the next few weeks to see for sure.

 

[frank8003]

Did some air line tweeking and now seems to have full braking power. .

found this intreresting


Post 124
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?127712-Red-s-deuce-camper-project/page4

 

[QUADJEEPER]

Quick recommendation - idle you engine and feel the hole you cut, if air is getting blown out the front of your core support, you may be creating a path for hot radiator air to loop around the front of the radiator.

Hey Tim, guess what pulled up in my driveway this morning? A fellow S.S. member ( Socom688 ) in his deuce with an OEM R headlamp panel cutout! I saw that and thought cool, it does work without issues. He said it was there for the electric horn that some deuces came with. BTW, have not detected any cooling problems.

 

[QUADJEEPER]

Got a few more things done to the 109 this weekend. Last weekend totally used up with an under slab water leak in my house. Ugg. No time or money for that! Worked on among other things the curb side over head cabinets and over head microwave install. Had to make the cabinets a bit deeper and higher ( lower? ) to accommodate the 'wave. Had previously installed a 110v dedicated outlet up there for it. So got it roughed in for now, will trim out and stain all cabinets once they are completed. Also added a couple of shelves as catch alls. Getting the truck ready for an upcoming swap meet/camp out in March. After that, gutting the temporary walls and lower cabinets so I can pull the floor out and repair the rusted sub floor, insulate and install new plywood in place of the floor boards. Will be a lot of work cutting out the thousands of rusted carriage bolts.

 

[QUADJEEPER]

Many projects going on currently, but managed to work on the 109 some today. Installed under cabinet LED lighting, does help for task illumination. Also some pics of the two shelves installed last weekend. Finally got 12 volt hookup for the LCD TV. Works on 110v AC as well, but want it on 12 volts all of the time. Did a temporary mounting of the fresh water tank ( 46 gallons ) and the water pump. Have the electrical now installed, plumbing soon. Once the floor is replaced, will strap in the tank. Also installed an additional 2 batteries, for a total of six at the moment. Want 12 total if I can get them all under the floor. Not too sure that will be possible. Still looking for a fold up bathroom sink if anyone has any leads.

 

[rustystud]

This must be your dog house for when your in trouble considering how nice your making it ! There is one thing I would do though. I know the batteries are sealed, but they can still leak if they have to vent. So I would install a heavy duty plastic or fiberglass mat down for them to sit on. I know it's rare but even our "Odyssey" batteries have vented when over-charged, or over heated. Better safe then sorry.

 

[QUADJEEPER]

This must be your dog house for when your in trouble considering how nice your making it ! There is one thing I would do though. I know the batteries are sealed, but they can still leak if they have to vent. So I would install a heavy duty plastic or fiberglass mat down for them to sit on. I know it's rare but even our "Odyssey" batteries have vented when over-charged, or over heated. Better safe then sorry.

Ha ha, Rusty, no dog house, not married! That's why I can build such a project. Battery location temporary, will be in an under floor compartment once the floor is redone. Will be vented and have a sealed cover. Thanks!