Titles & Virginia

[SierraHotel]

A couple weeks ago I saw a Deuce on the side of a back road for sale. Having always wanted a Deuce...and having $3,000.00 burning a hole in my pocket, I bought it after much researching, haggling (with the wife) and so forth. The Deuce came with a SF-97 and I got a bill of sale from the seller...everything should be cool, right?

The person that got the Deuce from GL 3 years ago was a local Sheriff's deputy who immediately sold it to a person (my seller) that had a rather large paint ball place. He never got it titled and just used it on the property as a Farm Vehicle.

OK, my patient wife went to Virginia DMV with the SF-97 and the bill of sale from the seller. Uh-oh, skipped title...class three misdemeanor. Lots of hassle...and I cannot get a title until my seller gets one too.

Well, this sounded just like my corporate politics at work, so I call DMV and asked them that if I have a SF-97 and have let it sit for 3 years without titling it, is that a problem? Not at all the voice at the 800 number says. And so, loaded with my SF-97 and no bill of sale, I go to another DMV to plead my case. Yep, as most of you have already guessed, the SF-97 is written to GL, not me...nor my seller. Hell, he (my seller) cannot even get it titled if he was amenable to it…and there is no way I’m getting a title to it. Of course, they said it is illegal for GL to sell a vehicle without a title…I believe they said it was a federal, Pennsylvania and Virginia violation. Go get a layer the lady says…I rolled my eyes and gave up calculating how much this Deuce would cost me.

I’m sure that there are more than a few giggles out there…and hopefully more than a few solutions to my plight…other than paying even more money to Broadway title or a lawyer. I don’t think GL will issue a title to me, although it appears to be pretty easy to bluff (based on posts I’ve read).

I have a Deuce with a hard top, but no winch…no title and it is a great battleship anchor (with no title).
I have a SF-97 from DRMO Chambersburg, PA to GL
I have a signed Bill of Sale from someone, along with a signed Odometer Disclosure Statement.
And I have a very uncooperative DMV.

Does anyone have the skill, knowledge or just plain cunning to advise me how to make my Deuce legal in Virginia? All suggestions, short of demolitions, would be greatly appreciated…especially if they result in getting my new Deuce legal in Virginia with a minimum of cost.

Hopefully, I have not bored anyone or but them to sleep with my long dissertation. I do look forward to being a future productive member of this group…’course, having a deuce that I can use would probably be helpful.

Thanks in advance,
Bo

 

[doghead]

Hey there! Welcome to SS and owning a Deuce. I can't help any with the Virgina State info but hang in there and I'm sure someone here can help.

 

[CGarbee]

You need to convince somebody at GL to fill out a "dealer reasignment form" . It is a form used by both VA and NC (I used to live in one and still have familly and business ties there, and now live in the other and thus have some idea about this...) for a dealer (in this case GL) to tell the state that they purchased the vehicle from the gov't and have then sold it to you without going to the trouble of titleing it...
It is a form commonly used in both states by car dealerships that allowes a purchaser to obtain a title for a new car (the dealership never titles something that they get from GM/Ford/Daimler for instance), and it works for SF97 items as well.. Now, getting somebody at GL to fill out the form for you is a competely different matter... But, it would be cheaper than a lawyer...
Good luck.

PS: Dealer Reasignment form is available from your friendly, local, DMV office...

 

[westfolk]

Bo,
Wish you were closer. I have SF-97's that have been laying around for years. When I want to get a title all I do is go to the Notary, pay the $22.50 title fee, $20 Notary fee, and want ever the tax is and that's it. No hassles. No bending the rules. If no one else(especially you Virginia guys) can help I'll help you out. Worst case it becomes PA titled then title it in Virginia.

 

[doghead]

Gene Payton is the GL title specialist. I think her phone # is 480-609-3278 ext-266
or it is 480-367-1300 ext-266. Sorry i have both numbers scribbled on a note from when I spoke with her.(not sure which is her number but the exention is correct)

Edit 11/20/06 480-367-1300 ext#266 is the correct number for Gene Payton E.S.

 

[SierraHotel]

Although DMV initially ticked me off and then depressed me, I had a feeling from several nights of reading the posts on this board, that I might get a solution here. You guys do not disappoint. Thanks you for your feedback. I hope to be able to return the favor at some point.

 

[wreckerman893]

If all else fails get a copy of Hemmings Motor magazine. There are several companies that specialize in getting titles for older vehicles. I think one of them is here in Alabama.
This may not be as big a PITA as you think.
Hey...if this hobby was easy anybody could own one.

 

[ida34]

I am almost sick of being the killjoy on this topic but STAY AWAY FROM TITLE COMPANIES!!!!!!!!!!. What they do is at the best barely legal. They lie to get a title in a state that does not require the title. Most states allow you to obtain a title after paying a surety bond in the amount of the vehicles worth. This is in the case of a lost title.

When you talk to the 1-800 lady ask her about getting a title with a surety bond. Also be very clear and explain to all involved that this vehicle has never been titled. When she tells you what to do ask her for the page and paragraph where this can be found in their policy manual. This is so you can reference it when you go to the local office. Selling the vehicle without a title does not violate Federal law. It does violate many states laws but some states do not require a title for older vehicles. This runs into how the title companies do it. They lie and say the vehicle is theirs, they then sent you the title and have you lie to the DMV to obtain a title. This is illegal in all the states I know of. I have an intimate knowledge of auto theft enforcement and can tell you that organized auto theft rings use the same procedures at the title companies to obtain titles for stolen vehicles.

If the vehicle was sold in a state that requires a title then GL is required to have the title and everyone that has sold the vehicle has also committed the crime also. Most states have statutes against selling vehicles with inoperable brakes also. Even scrap vehicles need to have a scrap title for transfer purposes. Most wrecking yards will not take vehicles for scrap with out the title, unless they choose to look the other way.

Do it the legal way. When I get my new cucv ready I will have to get a bond issued title also. I have know of people that got an old car with a title and later the DMV finds out somehow that the title was issued in error. They then have to have a LEO inspect the title and the vin. Avoid this. Do it right.

I don't have direct knowledge about VA or NC law but it has been my experience that most states that have a bond issued title available. The bond is in case someone show up with the original title.

 

[SierraHotel]

Interestingly and never told to me by any of the civil servants…there’s an oxymoron…Virginia has an “Affidavit in Lieu of Title Certificate” (VSA 12) that appears to fit my pathetic situation. Of course, it has to be reviewed and approved by the Commissioner of the Department of Motor Vehicles, and that could be the catch. I just find it disturbing that NO ONE mentioned this after talking to four separate people at the Virginia DMV. I’ll try it Monday or Tuesday and let you know how it goes. Hole punchers drive me crazy…I thought my karma account had better credit than this! And thank you all again for your input.

 

[SierraHotel]

Interestingly and never told to me by any of the civil servants…there’s an oxymoron…Virginia has an “Affidavit in Lieu of Title Certificate” (VSA 12) that appears to fit my pathetic situation. Of course, it has to be reviewed and approved by the Commissioner of the Department of Motor Vehicles, and that could be the catch. I just find it disturbing that NO ONE mentioned this after talking to four separate people at the Virginia DMV. I’ll try it Monday or Tuesday and let you know how it goes. Hole punchers drive me crazy…I thought my karma account had better credit than this! And thank you all again for your input.

 

[builder77]

This question has good timing as I have set my own personal deadline to either send a letter demanding a SF97 before I take GL to small claims or cave and just pay the $60 per SF97 to go their route. I have three vehicles that need SF97s so this adds up. All were purchased before they changed their new titling policy statement. The trailer I purchased since that change I will pay the $60 as I agreed to that fee when I bought it under their new terms.

Anyways you mentioned the class III misdemeanor. Here is the law that relates to that and it does not appear to apply to you as you are not the seller:
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§ 46.2-617. Sale of vehicle without certificate of title.

Except as provided in § 43-34, any person who sells, trades, exchanges, or barters a motor vehicle, trailer, or semitrailer in the Commonwealth without first having secured a certificate of title for it or without legally having in his possession a certificate of title for the vehicle issued to its owner, except as otherwise provided in this title, shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor.
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The following law does apply to you:
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§ 46.2-616. Acquiring vehicle from vendor who does not have certificate of title.

Except as otherwise provided in this title, no person shall purchase, trade, exchange, or barter for a motor vehicle, trailer, or semitrailer in the Commonwealth, knowing or having reason to believe that its seller has not secured a certificate of title, or knowing or having reason to believe that its seller does not legally have in his possession a certificate of title to the vehicle issued to its owner. Except as otherwise provided in this title, for the purposes of this article, off-road motorcycles and all-terrain vehicles shall be deemed motor vehicles.
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This appears to need knowledge of a lack of a title which from your explanation looks to me not to be a problem. There also happens to be no criminal saction listed, so I don't even think that it is a crime.

With two owners separating you from GL I don't know how if you can force GL to cough up a SF97. Probably the best way is to plead your case and offer to pay their fee. Do you have a bill of sale from the first guy to prove the chain of ownership? If that does not work you might be able to try and force the prior owners of this vehicle to get this worked out with GL as they do appear to have violated the first law.

I have not found where anything in Virginia law that obligates a seller to actually provide the buyer with a title even though I am sure it is a assumed. It might be an administrative law though. I would like to find out more about that Penn. and Federal law requiring this.

I am the village idiot so assume everything above is wrong and is barely advise and certainly not legal advise

 

[ida34]

There are usually one section of regulatory statutes to cover how the DMV conducts business then in another section is the criminal penalties for not complying. In other words, the regulatory section tells the DMV how to do business while the criminal section tells the police officer what he charges people with. Sometimes they are redundant and you may only find the criminal sanctions in the criminal sections. It you violate the regulatory part without violating the criminal part then usually they will revoke your title and/or registration with leads you into operating an unregistered vehicle. Now you are in the criminal section.

I disagree with the opinion that he has not violated 46.2-616. Acquiring vehicle from vendor who does not have certificate of title. You say he did not have knowledge that the seller did not have a title but if he took possession of the vehicle without getting a title then he did violate it. I almost bought a motorcycle once. I handed over the money and checked everything out. When I put my hand out for a title he said he had lost it and did not have it. I got my money back and left. If I had gotten it without a title then I would have violated the statute above. The fact that no title was presented should lead a reasonable person to have a reason to believe the seller does not have a title. This paragraph is designed to crush the "I didn't know" defense. I read law all the time and by all means they are not written in plain English. As to the lack of criminal penalty, keep looking and you will find a sanction of some sort. It may be civil or criminal but you will find one. If you look enough you may find a paragraph at the front or back which relates itself to the section in question. Again, law is not written so any normal person can read it. I had to take a test once. Read laws and see if I could correctly put them in plain English.

I also agree that GL will tell you to go take a hike. Technically speaking GL bought the truck from the government then they give you a power of attorney so that you can get the title and reassign it to you. The DMV could charge you for two titles. One for gl then one for you. They violated a business arrangement with the first seller and have no obligation to provide anything for you. They may work with you just to get the money. Since the vehicle has never been legally transfered by a title in VA they are still the legal owner. The original purchaser is not the legal owner until they file the paperwork you have. Since this has not been done they could just give legally you the transfer power of attorney. The original buyer could sue them for doing this. This makes getting all the bills of sale important. A legal transfer does not take place without the title once it leaves government service. Having bills of sale would allow you to fight this out in court and a judge could issue a court order for the title to be issued in your name. This is what occurs when someone dies and leaves a vehicle to someone.
I could go on for hours. PM me is you need any advice.

I don't feel the original poster should have know all this. People break laws all day without knowing it and without malicious intent. I only an trying to educate so that the next guy does it right without having the hassle described above. I have seen people set themselves up for a long drawn out fight when a little of knowledge at the onset will let them negotiate a fair price considering the hassle involved. This is why I passed on the motorcycle deal listed I talked about before.

 

[builder77]

This is why I made it a point to say I am an idiot

See I could imagine it would be easy to assume everything was covered with the title as he got the SF97 which is a federal title and a bill of sale at least until talking to the DMV. It is not like the seller did not have a title to give at all. By the way in Virginia a bill of sale means nothing to the DMV as far as I can tell.

Here is a good place to poke around Virginia law.
http://198.246.135.1/lis.htm

I totally agree with you that legaleeze is just close enough to english to fool you into thinking you understand it. I thought I had everything pinned down to demand a SF97 under that first law until I reread it and found out that they are covered as the Fed. gave them a title they just don't have to give it to me. I have to try to get the DMV to help me figure this out. The last two attempts to get info from them in writing went no where. Actually I am probably just going to admit defeat and send GL the cash.

 

[Stiches]

I'm probably confused too but I thought the sf97 was a "certificate to obtain title" and not the title. Also I thought that you don't need a bill of sale but a letter of reasignment from GL to you.

 

[CGarbee]

I'm probably confused too but I thought the sf97 was a "certificate to obtain title" and not the title. Also I thought that you don't need a bill of sale but a letter of reasignment from GL to you.

You are correct, and this is why I stated in an earlier reply to try to get GL to fill out a reasignment form so that a title could be obtained using the existing SF97. THe folks in VA know what a SF97 is and how to handle it, they just need the proper form filled out by the dealer (GL) explaining why somebody who is not them wants to obtain a title using paperwork showing that they (GL) purchased the truck...

I wholeheartedly agree that one should not use a title service like Broadway.... Both VA and NC assume that you are doing something very shady when you use a ttle service and turn down a title from them as a routine practice...

I have info on my website about titling by bond in NC, but since I have never done it in VA, and since you should be able to get a titile with a reasignment form and a SF97, I didn't mention it earlier.

GL does not have to title stuff in order to sell it to you , they just have to include a properly filled out dealer reasignment form...

Talk to the lady at GL using the contact info that was provided by the other SS member and let us know what she says...

Good luck.

 

[CGarbee]

Interestingly and never told to me by any of the civil servants…there’s an oxymoron…Virginia has an “Affidavit in Lieu of Title Certificate” (VSA 12) that appears to fit my pathetic situation. Of course, it has to be reviewed and approved by the Commissioner of the Department of Motor Vehicles, and that could be the catch. I just find it disturbing that NO ONE mentioned this after talking to four separate people at the Virginia DMV. I’ll try it Monday or Tuesday and let you know how it goes. Hole punchers drive me crazy…I thought my karma account had better credit than this! And thank you all again for your input.

Don't be that hard on the folks at the VA DMV, or too surprised that they didn't mention the VSA12 to you... We have that problem with the folks at the tag/title offices in NC all the time as well. They are not used to doing anything out of the ordinary nothing older then ten years, form an individual or firm in the state with curren paperowr), and thus, most of them forget everything in the back of thier manual.

Just be patient with them...

 

[SierraHotel]

While it is possible that I may be a fugitive from the DMV police (I shudder at the thought), I was given the understanding from the seller (as was his understanding and I believe the gentleman who originally purchased it from GL), that the SF-97 provided an open title to the bearer. Not knowing the intricacies of the SF-97 and GL, it sounded correct to me. In fact, the seller had me take the SF-97 to DMV to satisfy myself that what he said was correct. They confirmed it. The hitch came up when my name was not listed on the SF-97 when I went to go get title. I do not feel that the seller did anything underhanded or sneaky; he really believed that the SF-97 would get me title. Unfortunately, he has gotten stuck between a problem GL has created and Virginia DMV has exasperated. As such, I intend to keep his involvement with my current troubles (as well as the original purchaser from GL) out of the issue as much as possible (GL however, I will drag through the mud and stomp on). Everything always says “to the best of my knowledge” where you sign. All of us believed that the SF 97 issued to GL would work. That’s my defense and I’m sticking to it (as they strap me into the chair).

However, for all Virginians out there, here is the link to VSA 12, “Affidavit in Lieu of Title Certificate”.
http://www.dmv.state.va.us/exec/search/get_url.asp?SiteID=763
It would appear to be a solution to Builder77’s issues, as well as mine. I’m willing to be a guinea pig and give it a shot. I’ll let you know how it falls (uh…maybe that is not the best way to put it). As I am sure I am not the first person to have this issue (although mine may be a bit unique), I would think that Virginia has a history with GL and this may sail through.

As I’ve tried really hard to be an honest man since turning 21 (long, long ago), I have not lied at either the DMV yesterday, nor on the VSA 12, and I would never suggest anyone lie. However, I did not mention some items that were either not advantageous to my petition or not relevant.
The vehicle having two other owners is not relevant because they would not be able to obtain a title with the provided paperwork.
The vehicle was obtained at an auction run by GL is factual.
That GL refuses to provide titles or proper paperwork to register vehicles is relevant and factual.
That the vehicle was bought with cash is factual (the SF-97 was offered as a receipt and transfer of title).

I hope that the VSA 12 works, it would be a great way to contribute to SS. However, my confidence with trying to talk common sense to bureaucrats or “public servants” has been shaken. I appreciate all of your feedback about the direction to go, how to do it and an armchair view and interpretation of the laws. It is more help, and in my opinion, better help than I have received anywhere else. Of course, like everyone else, I’m just a stupid roofing consultant…what the hell do I know…other than roofing (oh my God, that is pathetic!).

 

[ida34]

Getting surplus vehicles is like getting are like just like a new trailer. When a new trailer is built it is issued a certificate of origin that has the vin on it. When you buy it you are the first person to title it. This is the same way a new car is titled at first but the dealer does all the work so you don't see the process. With the new trailer you go and provide the paperwork and the DMV generates the first title for the vehicle. Even though these vehicles are really old they have never been registered or titled. My local DMV person could not understand how a 1969 truck never had been registered. The sf97 is a certificate to obtain a title. It is how the federal government tells the local dmv that the vehicle has been in federal service and is now released to private hands and can now be titled. The government does not want to keep up with a certificate or origin for decades until they dispose of the vehicle so they created an exception. The SF97 acts like a certificate of origin.

Bo,
When I got my 97 from GL they provided a notarized statement transferring the 97 to me. You are lacking the letter transferring it to you. It acts like a limited power of attorney for that vehicle only. The only problem you will have is if the original purchaser comes forward with the original statement and challenges your right to the vehicle. If you have nothing proving the original owner sold the vehicle to the subsequent owners then you will most likely loose. You can't even testify that he had an agreement with your seller because you were not there. You subpoena all involved but this is problematic at best. If you can not prove the original owner legally sold the truck to your seller then the DMV will issue the title to him and he can legally take the vehicle from you. Having said this I doubt it will happen. This is a worst case scenario. This leads me to my next rant.

Always get a bill of sale.
Never get a vehicle without a title. Don't take the "I will have to find it" excuse. No title no money.

Most states allow a seller to apply for and get a title at the same time. This is usually at the state headquarters for the DMV. In MI there are several places to get it done and in TN it can be done in Nashville.

 

[SierraHotel]

I also intend to call Gene and try the reassignment route, but actually feel the VSA-12 is a more promising route. I will try all honest and honorable routes until I get one that works.

 

[ida34]

Bo, I edited my post above take a look. I also feel your pain. Once I did get a motorcycle and the guy brought out the title. It was the old title with his name in the new owner box. He never titled it. He lined out his name and put in my name above it. I knew this voided the title so I negotiated a fee for my extra trouble. I found the original owner and he was kind enough to provide me with a notorized statement that allowed me to get the title. A lot of hassle for sure.

I know I am harsh but I am not going to call Virginia and rat you out.