• Steel Soldiers now has a few new forums, read more about it at: New Munitions Forums!

  • Microsoft MSN, Live, Hotmail, Outlook email users may not be receiving emails. We are working to resolve this issue. Please add support@steelsoldiers.com to your trusted contacts.

Wheel Lug Nuts & Studs and Anti-Seize

Status
Not open for further replies.

Another Ahab

Well-known member
18,007
4,579
113
Location
Alexandria, VA
I had no idea how easy it is to stir up a hornets' nest on the forums here (and energize COMPLETELY polar opposite arguments, who knew?). I wasn't meaning to, but I'm older and wiser now. Seems like the fire is out now, and that a wrap-up for record would be helpful.

So, to close the loop, I interpret the summary (about use of anti-sieze on lug nuts) to be:

- Anti-sieze is NOT a necessary application, but CAN be a helpful application.
- If one chooses to use it on lug nuts, apply it ONLY to the NUT and NOT the STUD. And what you apply to the nut, do so ONLY to the threads on the OUTBOARD half of the nut. See very useful illustration at Posting #6 by G.

That's it. The End.
 

Draftjim

New member
25
0
0
Location
Missouri
EXCELLENT THREAD!
Now I got one I need help on.
With a standard issue military NDT tire how do I make sure the tire is not on the rim backwards?




Thats a joke son now see hear son when somebody tells a joke your supposed to laugh.
 

wheelspinner

Well-known member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
3,752
1,529
113
Location
North Carolina - FINALLY !
I'm new here but sure glad this issue has been settled. Where do I put the lubricant now? How about a dial indicator to measure stud streach

Funny thing is that is exactly how torque values are determined. Every fastener has a "plastic" phase which enables maximum clamp load. These are measured hundreds of times while gauged and being "torqued". These tests then result in a torque value that will maximize clamping load. I used to teach a class on this very subject for a transit bus OEM,and here is the example I used in the class for describing fastener elasticity: I have attached a "clean" shortened version of this training. Slide #10 explains clamping load best.

"Remember taking a "click" type pen apart? And then playing with the little spring? If you pulled just a little, the spring really didn't pull back very hard....If you pulled more, it got pretty good at pulling back and actually offered alot of resistance (elasticity)...... and then you pull it JUST a tad more and it doesn't go back. It was very hard to feel where that line was going to be but when you crossed it, the spring never pulled back. If this was a wheel stud, this would have been a failure as the stud has lost its elasticity. Simply loosening the fastener and retightening after being compromised is useless.




Also, just to fan the fire, MERITOR recommends a few drops of oil, at the end few threads. No paint or lubricant should be present on the rim face, the lug face or the stud. https://s3.amazonaws.com/helm-arm-lod/mm99100.pdf (book page 15, PDF page 18 )
 

Attachments

Last edited:

rustystud

Well-known member
9,298
3,074
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
I'll go ahead and put in my 2 cents worth here. I'm a "ASE" certified Master heavy truck mechanic, have been for over 30 yrs. I've been working at a major transit system for 22 yrs now .We have over 1400 busses running. This question comes up alot when we get a newbie mechanic . The answer is to lube the threads lightly and torque to specs. That is wet specs. You can use anti-sieze and yes a little goes a long way.
Most use "TRi-Flow" spray, a Teflon type of spray. Now before all the blow hards start in I want to add since we're a public agency and safety is paramount, and the lawsuits can be in the millions, we in maintenance
make D@m sure we know what we're doing ! Our training center trains mechanics from over 3 states ! We're not some flyby-night truck stop, we're the seventh largest transit agency in The United States. So blow hards fire away.
 
Last edited:

frank8003

In Memorial
In Memorial
6,426
4,985
113
Location
Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
from Steel Soldiers
Geared Lug Wrench - how NOT to use it & extra info 03-01-2010, 19:08number9

with the issue 30 inch bar and stud/lugnut wrench a 200lb man bouncing on it can produce all the torque you will ever need to tighten these nuts and if you do it yourself you will always be able to change a flat tire if you have to,
saw an interesting sight at ga mvpa rally, military air ratchets breaking sockets, 5 foot cheater bars bending the issue 30 inch bar and lug nut wrench double reduction ratchets couldn’t break the nuts loose, moral of the story………
ONLY USE THE ISSUE BAR ,STUD/ LUGNUT WRENCH WHEN TORQUEING YOUR LUGNUTS/STUDS,OR YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO REMOVE THEM WHEN YOU HAVE TO
next question, tm 9-8024,page 472 paragraph 259
inner nuts 400 to 450 ft lbs, outer lug nuts the same

never let anyone put a 1 inch drive air ratchet and socket to tighten your lug nuts.
the military issued a WRENCH, ORD PART # 7950644,
and a HANDLE, wheel bearing adj.
and wheel stud/ lug nut wrench 3/4 in dia. 30 in long, ORD # 41-h 1541-10,
fed stock # 5120-243-2419,page 7 ,ORD 7 SNL G-749.
 

frank8003

In Memorial
In Memorial
6,426
4,985
113
Location
Ft. Lauderdale, Florida

rustystud

Well-known member
9,298
3,074
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
I like how people justify there answers by quoting from other blog sites as if the truth will change if enough people say something is true. I would like to say the moon is really made of cheese because I read it in a
book from the last century. You gotta believe that. About headbolts, what does "ARP" say ? Cleaned threads and lightly lubed, HUMMMM .
 

steelypip

Active member
769
68
28
Location
Charlottesville, VA
**Sigh** I should leave this one alone, but I guess I'm a glutton for punishment. I actually had to do some historical research on this long ago because I had to deal with conflicting answers from the factory manuals about a cylinder head fastener torque, and wanted to know what was right. I'd read lots of issues of Hot Rod and Car Craft in my formative years, so I knew what they said, but I didn't know how to actually do the engineering and come up with the right answer from scratch (to weed out the good numbers from the bad in the factory manuals).

First, I asked my dad, who is a degreed mechanical engineer with a specialty in aircraft powerplant design. He mentioned the whole elastic modulus thing, yield strain, and preloading, which I knew about, but had never worked with much, as my engineering training was all on nonferrous materials, most of which have really funky characteristics in some use cases and are seldom preloaded. A little light reading about ferrous alloy tensile strengths, hardnesses, and cut or rolled threads and I was pretty close.

Then a brief gander at the Machinery handbook and the SAE handbook, and there you go. In my case, the hard part was tracking down what alloys the original materials were. Everything after that was pretty simple calculation.

The short answer is that fastener torque is always an indirect measurement: you're not measuring the preload (pre-strain, really) of the fastener (which is what you care about), you're measuring the force required to turn the fastener on its threads, which is an abstraction related to fastener stretch, but depending on:

1) the coefficients of friction between the moving and nonmoving parts (you can have multiple of these depending on where there's lubricant)
2) the thread pitch
3) the surface area of sliding contact (again, divided up into different areas if you have different coefficients of friction)

Almost nobody bothers to calculate this stuff from scratch - there's always a handy table. The tables are really quite good as long as you know what alloy and hardness are used for the fastener and the fastened material. And if somebody really, really cares, or it's a special part, or both, they'll find some way to put the specified fastener on a bench and measure actual stretch with a micrometer and the specified lubrication regimen and use THAT to set the fastener torque specification in the manual.

So what should you do? 99+% of the time, the answer is "whatever the manual tells you to do." So if you're working on a Meritor system on an OTR semi trailer, you do what Meritor says to do. End of discussion. It doesn't matter if you learned a different way on the farm, or if that's not what the manual for your '65 Ford Fairlane said to do. If you don't know what the manual says, then, as we say in the IT biz: 'get out of my cube and go RTFM.'

So what about the other <1% of cases where you don't have a manual (Pre WWII hardware, one-off specials, stuff like that)? Lots of the time you can consult period documentation that talks generically about hardware a lot like yours and get a magic number and method from that. The closer the documentation is to your specific lump of hardware, the more trustworthy the numbers within will be. So if you have, say a prewar Zundapp, and all you have is the manual for a prewar BMW of similar age, then you can probably trust the torque specs as long as thread pitch and materials (joined and fastener) are similar. Lots of times there's a standard table, as with US aviation airframe hardware. But if you're working on aviation hardware, you're an A&P and you already knew that, right?

And what if you don't have any manual at all, or you (as I did) have multiple manuals for your hardware telling you different things, and you know it's not a generic fastener application as seen in the Machinery Handbook? Well, then you get to play engineer and figure it out. Sometimes people writing manuals make mistakes. Sometimes the factory gets desperate and does stupid things with the specs in successive years to try to make a problem go away (that's what happened in my particular example).

I have seen tables equating torques between oiled and dry threads a couple of times in my life. They're tricky: you don't know how many times the threads have been buffed down by fasteners after they were cut/rolled, etc. One thing is always true: if the torque was spec'd for dry threads and you're oiling them, you're overtightening. If the specs are for oiled threads, your fastener won't be tight (stretched) enough if tightened dry.

I saw a statistic somewhere once that something like 90% of all fastener failures are due to overtightening. 'enough plus a little bit more' is very seldom the right answer. Remember that when worrying if the wheels are going to fall off your truck. Guess-a-torque is seldom the right answer, and if you have to guess, it's better to undertighten than overtighten almost all the time. Do note, though, that torque specs usually have a tolerance range, not a single number. Always tighten to the middle of the range - that copes with errors in your equipment or method.

For wheel lug nuts/bolts/studs, I've seen manuals that specified oiling the lug threads, the threads and the lug cone face (for conical lugs), or neither. Some say not to reuse a fastener, usually because it's tightened past its yield point and won't behave the same way if used a second time.

So, as far as I am concerned: there is no one right answer to this question because the engineers who designed the hardware didn't do it the same way every time. You're never going to find one right answer that fits everything. Quit trying. And RTFM.

And for the curious, the answer in my particular case was oiled threads and the torque from the earliest manual, which was 30-35 lb-ft.
 

Jakelc15

Active member
718
37
28
Location
Hanover Pa
I only use the copper anti seize, the aluminum seems to dry out and get hard.

I use anti seize on everything, including lug nuts and head bolts. And I put it on like it's free! Lol :papabear:
:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:
 

rustystud

Well-known member
9,298
3,074
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
Jakelc15 I totally agree, the copper anti-sieze is much better then regular silver anti-sieze and it doesn't wash out as bad as the regular anti-sieze does.
Steelypip I also agree with you in principal. I don't lube every threaded bolt I use, but there are instances in the real world when you have to use common sense. I'll give you an example from my work.
Years ago this discussion about lube on lug nuts came around because the lug bolts where galling from repeated use. ( we change out brakes every 6000 miles or there about since we're a transit agency and must comply with Federal, state and local laws on safety , plus are brakes get used HARD daily !! ) One day one of our mechanics almost lost his job. After torqueing the lug nuts and sending the bus out he was working on, it came back with over half the studs broken off. Management had a fit and said the mechanic did not torque the nuts properly endangering the public. After the Union and company engineers, and the manufacturer and everyone else with an opinion get there 2cents in , a study was made. Due to the repeated removal and install of the lug nuts, a lite coat of lubricant was in order to prevent galling of surfaces.
Merritor was one of the manufacturers involved then. So from that time on we lube the studs. The old torque value was 500 ft lbs, the new value is 460 to 475 ft lbs.
So when someone comes out and says " It is gospel that NO lube be used on lug nuts ! " you just have to say "leave your ignorance out side" .
 

zout

In Memorial
In Memorial
7,744
154
63
Location
Columbus Georgia
Don't forget to anti seize them universal joint caps either when you assembly them - easier to take apart the next time.

Its like that Hot Sauce radio commercial "I put that chit on everything". And everything comes apart easier next time.
 

DrillerSurplus

New member
443
7
0
Location
Salt Lake City. UT
**Sigh** I should leave this one alone, but I guess I'm a glutton for punishment. I actually had to do some historical research on this long ago because I had to deal with conflicting answers from the factory manuals about a cylinder head fastener torque, and wanted to know what was right.

And if somebody really, really cares, or it's a special part, or both, they'll find some way to put the specified fastener on a bench and measure actual stretch with a micrometer and the specified lubrication regimen and use THAT to set the fastener torque specification in the manual.
Like steelypip I had to do some research a while ago because we were having repeated failures on a new rig where the hydraulic cylinders were breaking the four 5/8ths grade 8 bolts that held one end to the rig. A couple of things we learned seem relevant here. 1. FASTENAL is one of the largest fastener manufacturers and has published a great technical reference guide. It has extensive discussion regarding the relationship between torque and "preload" as well as all the variables that can change it as steelypip mentions. It is also great for identifying the grade of nuts and bolts.

http://www.fastenal.com/content/documents/FastenalTechnicalReferenceGuide.pdf
"Threaded fasteners can do a good job of holding things together only when they are properly tightened.
The fastener to ensure the proper performance of the joint must produce an appropriate tension. To this
day a simple, inexpensive, and effective way to determine if a fastener is properly tightened has not been
found. Through the years, satisfactory ways have been discovered, but they are neither simple nor
inexpensive. In most situations we rely on less-than-perfect, but adequate traditional methods.
Were most joints not massively over-designed to accommodate inaccurate tightening, simple tightening
procedures could prove catastrophic. Designers will specify more or larger bolts than needed - - "

2. Putting the antiseize on the surface where the lug nut meets the wheel has a bigger effect on the torque than putting it on the threads. One of the few things that could be worse than having a big tire rolling down the road after it breaks all the studs is having the blades fall off your helicopter. It was one of those situations where "somebody really, really" cared and did some testing.
A good discussion about lubrication/torque and a summary of the article
"Failure of bolts in helicopter main rotor drive plate assembly due to improper application of lubricant" is here. http://www.mechanicsupport.com/articleTorqueWrench.html


I agree with steelypip that many failures come from overtightening. It doesn't have to be a 1" air gun either. A 200 pound guy at the end of a three foot cheater on the lug wrench is generating 600 lb-ft (aka foot pounds) of torque.

 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website like our supporting vendors. Their ads help keep Steel Soldiers going. Please consider disabling your ad blockers for the site. Thanks!

I've Disabled AdBlock
No Thanks