Will a deuce run on refrigeration oil?

[stumps]

I would call it a professional opinion based on over 10 years of specialized training and real world experience. Here is a PDF on how to make your used refrigerant oil EPA compliant for burning. http://www.p2pays.org/ref/13/12346.pdf

Thank you for the link to that PDF. If you read it, you will find that it says that your friend, with his over 10 years of specialized training and real world experience, is wrong.

According to the PDF you referenced, refrigerant oil that has been removed from refrigeration units, and hasn't been specially processed will contain in excess of the EPA's maximum amount of freon (4000ppm) allowed for recycling, burning, or other disposal.

I'm glad that we finally know that answer.

It still isn't clear whether the MF engine will consume the freon and the heat generated phosgene nerve gas, or whether it will just blow it out its exhaust pipe.

-Chuck

 

[FireFighterHill]

No, it does not. It states the EPA's allowable limits. I doubt most people on this board who have burned used oils from various sources are up to EPA guidelines. If it was me I wouldn't bother with heating the oil first id let it sit in an open container stir it up a few times then burn it maybe sit it in the sun that's about it. The only true way to know if there any bad stuff in the oil is to send it to a lab for testing.

 

[FireFighterHill]

Heres even more technical info for people to wrap there heads around http://www.che.ufl.edu/shah/misc/Publications/1997/Shah 1.pdf

If you read it states that different refrigerants and refrigerant oils have different absorption and desorption rates.

So the only way to truly know how much refrigerant is left in the oil is to have it tested in a lab. We know what the EPA wants for compliance but im still trying to find how high the chemical can be in ppm to cause an actual risk to health.

 

[stumps]

No, it does not. It states the EPA's allowable limits. I doubt most people on this board who have burned used oils from various sources are up to EPA guidelines. If it was me I wouldn't bother with heating the oil first id let it sit in an open container stir it up a few times then burn it maybe sit it in the sun that's about it. The only true way to know if there any bad stuff in the oil is to send it to a lab for testing.

.... According to him unless you drain the oil from a running system straight into a fire there is little to no chance of the oil retaining refrigerant.

The EPA seems quite sure there will be more than 4000ppm of freon in used, unprocessed, refrigerant oil. That is the same as saying the oil will have greater than 0.4% freon in it. I am certain that it won't matter how long you leave it in the bucket. If you don't heat it up, and draw it down to a vacuum, you won't be able to get to less than 0.4%

It's kind of like alcohol. There is a certain amount of water that alcohol will have dissolved in it, and you can heat it all you want, when you condense it back down, you will still have that amount of water. For grain alcohol, that amount is about 4%. With grain alcohol, the only way to get the water out is to freeze it and filter the ice crystals, or to run it through a desiccant, like silica gel.

In the case of freon, EPA isn't worried about the excess freon causing problems with the ozone layer, or making smog...they know it is tied up in the oil. They are worried about the combustion product of freon, which is phosgene nerve gas. I am certain of this.

Look up the effects of phosgene nerve gas. See if it is something you really want to play around with. I can't drive my deuce without smelling the exhaust some of the time. I sure would prefer I wasn't sniffing phosgene.

-Chuck

OBTW, thank you for taking my concerns seriously, even though you are trying to debunk them. If there is grave danger here, we should know about it. You are helping us to find this out.

 

[Josh]

If it makes ya guys feel any better, I've been buring fridge compressor oil in my furnace for many years with no issues.


Edit - Just want to clareify, its normally 15-20 gallons mixed in with 150 gallons of diesel.

 

[stumps]

Heres even more technical info for people to wrap there heads around http://www.che.ufl.edu/shah/misc/Publications/1997/Shah 1.pdf

This paper is more concerned with a mechanical difficulty posed by the refrigerant oil's absorption of the refrigerant. In order to gain the refrigeration effect, the refrigerant is compressed to a point of liquification, is cooled to room temperature, and is then allowed to expand quickly by spraying it out of a tiny orifice. When this spraying occurs, the oil entrained in the refrigerant tends to foam up, just like dish soap. That isn't desirable because it slows the return of the oil to the compressor (where it can do some good), and it increases the pressure in the suction side of the orifice, which reduces cooling efficiency.

-Chuck

 

[stumps]

If it makes ya guys feel any better, I've been buring fridge compressor oil in my furnace for many years with no issues.


Edit - Just want to clareify, its normally 15-20 gallons mixed in with 150 gallons of diesel.

Hi Josh,

Truth is I feel great, and I'd like to keep it that way!

The mixture you are burning is diluted 10:1. That would allow the refrigerant oil to contain 10 times the EPA maximum for burning, and still keep your mix below the standard. In other words, if your oil had less than 4% freon absorbed in it, your mix would keep the percentage below 0.4%...

In this case, dilution might really be the answer to phosgene pollution!

-Chuck

 

[USAFSS-ColdWarrior]

This new NERVE GAS factor raises some questions....

(this is purely a tongue-in-cheek sarcastic tryst intended to be "humorous")

1. Does GL auction full Chem Suits? If so...
2. How many Multi-Fuel Deuces running on Refrigerant Oil would it take (with Chem Suited Drivers) to convoy to a "center of political depravity" to effectively impliment TERM LIMITS on a barn-full of career politicians?

Just wunderin'

 

[FireFighterHill]

Ive been doing some reading up on phosgene and from what I can find its R11, R- 12, R- 113, R- 114 that once burned makes phosgene. R-134a and R-22 dont have the chemical make up to turn into phosgene once burned. That being said when you burn any refridgerant you get some nasty stuff.

 

[Cryogen]

This new NERVE GAS factor raises some questions....

(this is purely a tongue-in-cheek sarcastic tryst intended to be "humorous")

1. Does GL auction full Chem Suits? If so...
2. How many Multi-Fuel Deuces running on Refrigerant Oil would it take (with Chem Suited Drivers) to convoy to a "center of political depravity" to effectively impliment TERM LIMITS on a barn-full of career politicians?

Just wunderin'

Quite possibly the best post ever!

 

[USAFSS-ColdWarrior]

Ive been doing some reading up on phosgene and from what I can find its R11, R- 12, R- 113, R- 114 that once burned makes phosgene. R-134a and R-22 dont have the chemical make up to turn into phosgene once burned. That being said when you burn any refridgerant you get some nasty stuff.

Exactly the reason that firefighters don their positive pressure selfcontained breathing apparatus (SCBA) before entering any burning building - - - the dreaded "smoke inhalation" could contain the remnants of the gasses from an overheated/burning air conditioner or refridgerator.

 

[wreckerman893]

I would say that the hot air generated at Ground Zero would blow the phosgene away before it could do any harm to the primary hot air generators. It is a survival reaction they have (kind of like a skunk emitting a foul stink) to protect their status quo.
They are like cockroaches......you kill one and a hundred come to the funeral.

 

[USAFSS-ColdWarrior]

I would say that the hot air generated at Ground Zero would blow the phosgene away before it could do any harm to the primary hot air generators. It is a survival reaction they have (kind of like a skunk emitting a foul stink) to protect their status quo.
They are like cockroaches......you kill one and a hundred come to the funeral.

Once again, WM, you have applied shear genius to the equation and realized that, at best, it is nothing more than an implausible theory.

 

[stampy]

Now thats funny I don't care who you are....

 

[wreckerman893]

Once again, WM, you have applied shear genius to the equation and realized that, at best, it is nothing more than an implausible theory.

I just wish I had been born rich instead of so dam smart.

 

[stumps]

Ive been doing some reading up on phosgene and from what I can find its R11, R- 12, R- 113, R- 114 that once burned makes phosgene. R-134a and R-22 dont have the chemical make up to turn into phosgene once burned. That being said when you burn any refridgerant you get some nasty stuff.

That is correct.

R12 is built like this:
  Cl
  |
F-C-F
  |
  Cl

R22 is built like this:
  Cl
  |
F-C-F
  |
  H

R134a is built like this:
  F H
  | |
F-C-C-H
  | |
  F F

and Phosgene is:
Cl
  \
   C=O
  /
Cl

R22 lacks the necessary pair of Chlorine atoms (Cl) bonded to the Carbon (C) atom to make for the easy conversion to phosgene by burning (adding oxygen (O)).

And R134a has no Chlorine at all.

However...

They both make other nasty stuff when you burn them, so it probably isn't a good idea to burn either one.

The original poster was asking about a specific oil that is only suitable for refrigerants other than the R134a, though it would be suitable for R22.

-Chuck

 

[rwbrown72]

What?

 

[USAFSS-ColdWarrior]

What?

I would settle for ...

"Yup - It'll work and not kill you."

OR

"Don't even think about using it - It'll destroy life as we know it."

K.I.S.S.

 

[FireFighterHill]

Well umm we dont know enough about where the oil came from to make a final decision. If it was used with a non chlorine based refrigerant it should be fine. To error on the safe side I was thin it was another flammable fuel.

 

[stumps]

Sorry, I thought chemistry was a required class in high school... it is these days.

Basically refrigerant is a molecule, which is made up of atoms. The atoms in R12 are Carbon, Florine, and Chlorine. They are arranged in the general shape of the stick figure I posted.

When you burn anything, you are combining the anything with oxygen to get other molecules and heat. Burning R12 freon kicks the two fluorine atoms off the island, and makes hydrogen fluoride (nasty stuff), and a single oxygen atom moves in where the Fluorine atoms once were. The result is phosgene nerve gas (really nasty stuff).

Burning R134a can't give you phosgene because the structure is all wrong, and there is no chlorine.
Burning R22 can't give you phosgene because the structure is all wrong, and there isn't enough chlorine.

Burning R134a will give you lots of Hydrogen Fluoride, which is a really, really bad thing. It will etch glass, etch your bones right through your skin, and also give you chemical pneumonia if you breath it.

From what I am reading, I can tell you that burning unprocessed refrigeration oil that came from R12 charged systems will result in phosgene nerve gas. Diluting the oil 10:1 will probably make it safer.

I can also tell you that I don't want anybody to get hurt. This is a hobby, not a war. Perhaps we shouldn't burn some things just because we can?

-Chuck