Will a deuce run on refrigeration oil?

[gimpyrobb]

You said heat "could" release the refrigerant. Might one of those trash can fuel fired heaters be used to (heating the oil) release it? Would that release be toxic?

 

[FireFighterHill]

Gimp, that should release some of the refrigerant but you'd get out alot more by placing the oil under a vacuum. And I would be very careful on how hot you get that oil.

 

[housemover]

In my own hillbilly test truck I have been burning used refrige oil for a couple years. Not in large amounts 30 or so gals at a time half a dozen times a year or so. I cannot smell a difference in it or wmo at the exaust. Truck runs same would burn more if it was avalible. Thats all I can add.

 

[stumps]

Phosgene has no smell that you would be able to distinguish above the normal diesel smells. We know that the base oil would be fine as a fuel. My worry is what the freon becomes during combustion, and whether it can survive the MF's combustion temperatures.

If you never were in a position to breath any of the exhaust, I'm sure there would be no problem. But deuce cabs are rather leaky beasts, and the exhaust seems to somehow always end up in the cab to a certain degree at certain times.

Also, even if the oil was from R22 and R134a systems, and couldn't make phosgene, there is the matter of the hydrogen fluoride gas, which in the presence of the moisture in the exhaust, becomes hydro-fluoric acid...

-Chuck

 

[hairba11]

so it should run, but there is a 4, or 0.4% chance it will eat your face.

good odds as long as you're not in missouri.

 

[stumps]

so it should run, but there is a 4, or 0.4% chance it will eat your face.

good odds as long as you're not in missouri.

No, you are misinterpreting what is being said:

Used refrigerant oil will run in the MF engine, just like any other light oil.

We can infer from the papers that FFH has found, that EPA thinks any amount of refrigerant above 0.4% in WRO is hazardous, and we can further infer that they think all unprocessed WRO will contain more than 0.4% refrigerant. They don't just set their limits for fun. .. There is some research behind them.

What we don't know with any certainty is if the MF engine will emit phosgene from its exhaust..

I think it will, and in toxic amounts, but I can't prove it one way or the other.

The one thing that we haven't been stating at all is anything about the probabilities that burning WRO will harm you.

-Chuck

 

[Crazyguyla]

This thread is killing me. One, Phosgene is not a nerve agent. Sorry, no dying cockroach or kickin chickens from imediate inhalation. It is a choking agent which isn't any better, just takes longer to kill. In concentration, it has a smell of freshly mown hay. It has a boiling point of 47F, so the 400F+ of combustion should destroy any reminent of what ever. Saying there's phosgene coming out of the exhaust is like saying there is fuel flowing freely out the exhaust. I know there is at times unburned fuel coming out in the exhaust, but with the low boiling point of phosgene, by the time any remnant hits the cold air, it's been burned down below dangerous or even worrying levels in the hot exhaust. I'm not a chemist or a smart man, but dealing with and nutrelizing chemical weapons is my specialty. I could go into more details about that, but then the MIB would come visit. lol

Stop worrying about phosgene in the exhaust and enjoy burning the refrigerent oil.

The way phosgene harms the body is by breaking down the air sacs in the lungs and preventing air/oxygen exchange. Hence the choking. The body can repair the damage, but that takes time also. IMHO one has more of a chance dying from smoking/ pollution than from any phosgene in the exhaust.

 

[JDToumanian]

I don't mind this thread.... Better to learn the truth before someone is in the hospital for "chemical pneumonia" after breathing compressor oil fired deuce exhaust. Because to me, even a small risk is too high. I've been poisoned before, I was sick for months with lead poisoning back in 1996 and had to have blood chelation therapy to remove it.... This was for soldering lead with a gas torch and accidentally getting a whiff of the fumes. (probably cumulative too, I used to solder a lot.) My memory has never returned to what it was before. I've known people poisoned by cadmium from silver brazing too. I'm careful now and wear a respirator, but people shouldn't always need tragedy to learn.

Regards,
Jon

 

[hairba11]

No, you are misinterpreting what is being said:

-Chuck

no chuck, i'm deliberately being a wisea$$. The points you have raised have been valid, I even understood the molecular diagrams you were using.

while i think diluting it further would help, and if it is as light as everyone is saying maybe a little WMO and diesel could help dilute any harmful substance further.

another consideration would be not only the temperature of combustion, but the amount of air coming in.
the turbo pushes in extra air for combustion and i don't think there would be as much chance of the carbon bonding to the chlorine as there would be hydrogen

H is 1st row and column which makes it the most reactive, some bonds to the oxygen to form water, and some to the chlorine to make hydrochloric acid

and if there is fluorine, hyduoric hydrRO FLuoric acid as mentioned.

the carbon will all go to c02, or co

i think there is less of a chance of inhalation injury as there would a chance to rust out your turbo and exhaust by adding acid to the exhaust stream.

 

[CaliBeaker]

Having my graduate experience in toxicology this post sure distracted me from work this morning.

With a little more info I could calculate how much phosgene is given off in an hour and it's concentration.

This would be purely academic since phosgene decomposes to carbon monoxide and chlorine gas above 200 deg C (396 deg F). I wouldn't worry about phosgene coming out of the stack, but you really should keep your lips of it anyways.

 

[FireFighterHill]

I had trouble finding info on how to destroy or neutralize phosgene. Im not doubting you guys but do you have any documentation or references to back up your claims?

 

[USAFSS-ColdWarrior]

I too uderstood the molecular diagrams (well done by the way) but would love to skip to the "final analysis" and find out : Good or Bad alternate fuel?

 

[CaliBeaker]

I'll see if I can round up a book as I don't have anything on hand at the moment.

But I found a nice link to a journal article that even had a firefighter on the cover

Decomposition of Phosgene in Air - American Industrial Hygiene Association Journal

Phosgene - New World Encyclopedia

 

[wreckerman893]

If I remember my history Phosgene was used in WWI with devestating effect by both sides (I may be wrong on this point). The effects were maximized by the trench warfare because the heavy gas tended to sink into low areas and linger depending on the weather.
Thousands of soldiers died and were injured permanently from breathing the gas.
This was very concentrated and fired in huge quantities by the combatants.
It was designed specifically to kill and main.
While I don't want to see anybody hurt by this hobby I think the quantities are miniscule compared to the chemical weapon version.
I also worked in Chemical Demil at one time and understand the chemistry.

 

[USAFSS-ColdWarrior]

WM,
You are correct about the WWI application.

The gases destroyed "the enemy's capability AND WILL to wage war", and therefore, by requiring large numbers of caretakers for the incapacitated.... created a HUGE diversion of manpower.

A very effective Weapon of War.

 

[armytruck63]

WM,
You are correct about the WWI application.

The gases destroyed "the enemy's capability AND WILL to wage war", and therefore, by requiring large numbers of caretakers for the incapacitated.... created a HUGE diversion of manpower.

A very effective Weapon of War.

We're getting off track here, but gas as a weapon was outlawed by the Geneva Convention (or was is the League of Nations) around 1920 specifically because of its devastating effects.

 

[USAFSS-ColdWarrior]

We're getting off track here, but gas as a weapon was outlawed by the Geneva Convention (or was is the League of Nations) around 1920 specifically because of its devastating effects.

You are correct, and thank you for pointing out the detour that this thread has taken.

BTW- As for "obsolete" battle tactics, we also no longer pour boiling oil from the castle walls, employ medievil devices of Spanish Inquisition style torture, or other barbaric methods.

Instead, we as Steel Soldiers tend to focus upon constructive re-uses of former military vehicles and equipment for much more civil purposes. We are GREAT recyclers of both the hardware and the FUELS that would otherwise be disposed of as waste products. Thankfully, we operate many vehicles with powerplants capable of extracting as much energy as practical from seemingly "worthless" waste while attempting to maintain an acceptable margin of personal and environmental safety.

For the sake of perspective, the background knowledge of the historic tactical use of the potentially harmful byproducts of WRO can and should legitimately be discussed here so as to educate and emphasize the inherent DANGERS of blind ingnorance of those hazards. Hence, any discussion of the benefits of WRO as a Fuel would be dereliction of duty without some omnifocused mention of the antithesis perspectives.

So....
We've simply "Looked at both sides now." <Yay us>

I would love to burn some WRO. And thanks to this thread, I am now better educated about the pros and cons of my decision. I'm definitely NOT going to be SNIFFIN' THE STACK if there's any WRO in the tank though

 

[hairba11]

ok, so get two fuel tanks, idle and low speed with diesel/WMO, then when you get on the highway switch to WRO so it at least is blowing away from you.

 

[hoop]

I have heard that the exhaust from a combustion engine is very bad. Maybe even very very bad. And some even say it is very, very, very bad.

 

[m16ty]

I don't know if this is matters or not but alot of commercial systems use ammonia instead of freon.