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Yet another M1009 w/ Elec. Problems

sps8072

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Poconos, Pa
Yet another starting problem. The last owner had replaced the 24v starter w/ a 12v starter and was starting on 24v. Not good. I ran the truck around a few times, and it stopped working. Big Surprise- mea culpa. This is what happens:

I turn on the key, the idiot lights come on. The Wait to start light comes on, the glow plugs heat, light goes off. I turn key to "start" position, and hear loud "tink" as gear in starter hits flywheel, but starter does not turn.

Feeling that a mechanic should be able to fix it, I took it to a local garage. He said put a in a new starter, which he did. Prior to installing the new starter, the mechanic de-energized the system by removing the jumper cable connecting the front battery to the rear battery.

At this point, the new starter is in, - cable to front batt is on, + cable from rear batt is on, and jumper from front to rear batt is being connected. Big flash and arc. Front + post on batt partially melted. During this time, the pink cable from the power dist. block above the heater core was not connected as it was going to be connected to the front pos clamp for 12v operation of starter.

The mechanic says that there is a short in the ignition system and that the solenoid immediately gets power as soon as the battery cables get connected and you can hear "ting" (similar to glow plug solenoid). The starter power cable is still not attatched at this point.

My question is: If the ignition wire to the starter solenoid is removed and the battery cables are reconnected, with the starter power cable connected to the + post on the front battery, would this work to isolate the problem as coming from the ignition, and point towards the ignition switch?

The mechanic wants to replace the switch right away, but admits that he doesn't know 24v systems. I explained how the truck elec sys works, but I am having serious doubts as to the mechanic's ability at this point. He was unable to distinguish between a series, and a parallel w/ batteries?

Anybody have an idea what I should do? (Choking mechanic is out :)).
 

mangus580

New member
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Location
Western NY
I would download the TM manuals for your truck... and print out the proper schematics on teh starting system. Give them to your mechanic... they will be of great help.

It sounds to me like your starter relay is stuck..... search the forums, you will find a ton of information on it.
 

stampy

Active member
1,321
22
38
Location
Henderson. NC
I would download the TM manuals for your truck... and print out the proper schematics on teh starting system. Give them to your mechanic... they will be of great help.

It sounds to me like your starter relay is stuck..... search the forums, you will find a ton of information on it.

AMEN to the above:grin:
 

stuinnh

Member
84
4
8
Location
Derry, NH
2 batteries

Don't forget that you still need 2 batteries even in 12v starter. My 2 batteries connect on the firewall in the connection strips.
 

stuinnh

Member
84
4
8
Location
Derry, NH
Don't forget to bypass resistor on firewall. It drops the voltage from 24v to 12v for glow plug power. Otherwise you will only have 4 volts supply to your glow plugs.
 

wallew

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San Angelo, Tx USA Planet Earth
If you are bound and determined to STAY with a 12v system, I've found this particular link to be very helpful. Very good description with pix and everything.

Techniek - Ombouw 24V -> 12V - ChaosBoyz 4x4

Having said that, I've spent several months CORRECTING an incorrect 12v conversion.

Basically all the sheriff department who owned my CUCV before me just did was connect the two 12v batteries in parallel connected directly to the connector strips. And installed a 12v starter.

That's ALL they did. It worked 'OK' I guess. But I was always having issues.

I finally told myself it was 'TIME TO GO BACK' to 24v system.

In the past two months, my system is now completely stock and EVERYTHING that used to NOT work is now working.

It is NOT cheap. But going back to how the vehicle was designed to run in 24v for the military is the way to go. At least that's how I see it.

And like I said, NOW everything is working properly again.
 

ida34

Well-known member
4,120
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Location
Dexter, MI
The mechanic probably also missed the fact that the starter impulse from the relay under the dash is still putting out 24 volts to the start side of the solenoid on the starter. If you are going to have him convert it to 12 volts then down load the how to in the resources section. Your original problem was probably a bad relay under the dash. It takes the 12 volt impulse from the ignition switch and makes a 24 volt impulse for the 24 volt starter. I would get a 24 volt starter and take it back to stock. Also, give you mechanic the schematic as this is probably a very different beast than he has ever worked on before.
 

sps8072

New member
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Location
Poconos, Pa
My mechanic installed the new relay from NAPA, now he says that the starter keeps cranking after you let off the key from the "start" position. He is of the opinion that this is a ignition switch problem now.
Could he be right, or is he just taking the easy route and switching parts:roll:?
 

sps8072

New member
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Location
Poconos, Pa
Just got off the phone with another mechanic, same garage, who says that the gear reduction starter has a fried solenoid, which cannot be replaced. My confidence with this garage is rapidly slipping:x.

I took the truck to them to save me some time. It looks like I'm going to bring it home and fix it right.
 

wallew

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San Angelo, Tx USA Planet Earth
Just got off the phone with another mechanic, same garage, who says that the gear reduction starter has a fried solenoid, which cannot be replaced. My confidence with this garage is rapidly slipping.

I took the truck to them to save me some time. It looks like I'm going to bring it home and fix it right.
I'll call BS on this 'cannot be replaced' stuff.

I've replaced BOTH a 12v AND a 24v solenoid. They are available. The 24v is more expensive, but they are available.

I'd run from this guy, because he has no idea what he's doing or what he's talking about.
 

ida34

Well-known member
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Location
Dexter, MI
This is simple electrical trouble shooting. I would run. If they are replacing stuff like a relay without checking it first sounds very suspicious. This is very simple stuff to check. They may stumble on the military specific stuff but with a schematic they should be able to check it. Is power coming out of the ignition switch? If yes then proceed. If no then see if power is going to the ignition switch. If power is going in and not out replace switch. If power is going out check relay under dash. Check for 24 volt to the relay and see if 12 volt is applied when the ignition switch is in the start position. Then check for 24 volt out. Next check at the starter for 24 volt going to the solenoid on the starter. If it is getting 24 volts then is is passing it on to the actual starter motor? Easy stuff. The -20 even gives step by step testing instructions.

In your case either the ignition switch is stuck on, the relay is stuck on, or the solenoid on the starter is stuck on. If you unplug the relay under the dash and the starter is still trying to turn over then the starter solenoid is most likely bad. When pulling the relay check to see if the ignition switch is applying 12 volts to the relay even when the switch is not in the start position. You can also check the relay with a multimeter and by applying 12 volts to the trigger side of the relay.
 

sps8072

New member
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Location
Poconos, Pa
I'll call BS on this 'cannot be replaced' stuff.

I've replaced BOTH a 12v AND a 24v solenoid. They are available. The 24v is more expensive, but they are available.

I'd run from this guy, because he has no idea what he's doing or what he's talking about.
I second calling BS on not being able to replace the starter solenoid. I replaced them in the past on '70s & '80s GMs w/ a problem. I have a junkyard Delco gear reduction starter, which I personally tested with the solenoid, and bypassing the solenoid, and it worked both times. The goober replaced the starter relay under the dash w/ the 200 amp napa part.
He played multiple guess under the hood, hooked the brand new rebuilt 12v starter to 24v, and may have fried the contacts in the starter solenoid.

I took IDA's advice and had him check out the ignition switch, and it tested ok, the new relay tested ok. When the ignition is turned to "start", power comes down the purple wire.
After talking to another of the fools at the garage, it turns out that they have been using a test light, and not voltage tester, so they have no idea what the voltages, amperages, are, or if there is continuity.

Time to find another mechanic.
 

wallew

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San Angelo, Tx USA Planet Earth
SPS,

You know more about your truck than ANY mechanic will know. These guys don't have a clue if it's NOT 12v and NOT gasoline engine.

With all the time you've got invested in this problem, I'd bet you a dollar that not only can YOU diagnose and fix the problem, you will be WAY AHEAD than 'finding another mechanic'.

Now if you had no clue what was happening, then OK, maybe.

But now you know.

just sayin...
 

sps8072

New member
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1
Location
Poconos, Pa
SPS,

You know more about your truck than ANY mechanic will know. These guys don't have a clue if it's NOT 12v and NOT gasoline engine.

With all the time you've got invested in this problem, I'd bet you a dollar that not only can YOU diagnose and fix the problem, you will be WAY AHEAD than 'finding another mechanic'.

Now if you had no clue what was happening, then OK, maybe.

But now you know.

just sayin...
You're preaching to the choir here. The truck's coming home tomorrow, and I'm fixing it myself.
 
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