More engine problems (Documentation of testing fuel system, failure of Hyd Head)

[patracy]

testing the HH is very easy, remove the two keepers so you can pull the plunger out. hold the plunger in your fist for 5 to 10 seconds. if it will go back in it is bad. yes it fits that closely. also if the surface of the plunger has elongated swirl marks that indicates excessive wear, it should be bright with no visable blemishes.

Well I certainly have to replace the HH now. Broke the bowtie retainer trying to disassemble it. There is an overlapping wave form pattern at the top most portion of the plunger (last 1/4" of the plunger that actually pushes the fuel). Playing around with the plunger, trying to pull it up 1/4" of a inch from the top of the stroke. (Head laying upside down, plug out of the center) As soon as I let go of the plunger, it falls down to the bottom (top really of the HH). That's even with a light coat of penetrating oil.

 

[patracy]

Picked up a HH from Twright today. It doesn't compress anywhere nearly as easy as mine did. I did get it popped back into the IP. But I still need to finish up the bolts, plumbing, cutoff lever, exc. I'm thinking that once I get everything buttoned back together, I'll hold off on reinstalling the cut off cable/cover. Just to double check for leaks. I'm also going to wait to reinstall the injector lines to make sure I get fuel from all 6 ports first. Maybe the 'smasher will rumble to life tomorrow afternoon.

 

[maahes]

Your problem is almost 95% the same as the issues I had.
Ran out of fuel and limped it to the gas station.
Wouldn't start without spray.
Good fuel after priming all the way up to the HH including out the center plug.

I was running straight diesel.
Your's seems to idle better than mine did, if I didn't give it a little throttle and it dropped below 1000RPM it would die, and I would have to start with ether/silicone.

After around a month of poking sticks at it I replaced the HH and it was all fixed.
Well that issue is fixed, I think I have one or two of the injector feed lines incorrectly seated into the HH as there is a bit of a fuel drip and a distinct loss of power at WOT.
I would bet that with a new HH your issues should be fixed.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Drew, did you put on new O-rings?

 

[Heath_h49008]

Shoot.

I'm sorry it turned out to be the HH Patracy. I was really rooting for it to be anything else. (for your sake)

 

[patracy]

Well it's official, I killed the HH by starving it!

I installed the HH at lunch today. Bleed the system and bumped the starter, it roared to life. Not even any starting fluid.

I'm not upset, it was a $150 mistake. (Thank you again Tony!) I was trying to be cheap, and it ended up costing me more instead of stopping at the gas station on the way to my friends shop. It lurched at the traffic light at the gas station's corner, I should have filled up then. But I thought ehh I've only got 3 miles till I get "free" fuel. I can make it that far.

I really don't think the WMO played a factor in this failure. Me keeping my foot in it with it saying no more for a 1/4 of a mile downhill with nothing lubing the HH is what did it in. When the wife gets home tonight (I dunno where the camera is from last weekend's trip) I'll take pics of the plunger to show the issue.

I'm simply happy at this point in time that it's running again!

Lesson: NEVER starve a HH for fuel. If it bogs down for a lack of fuel, put it neutral and let the engine shut off. Let it coast to a safe point, then check the fuel system.

Also, I'm considering adding a tee on the bleeder port of the secondary filters. And installing the oil pressure pump I have perm. I can safely know then any fuel related pressure issues to the HH in the future. I've got to buy some fittings to "dual line" my 931 anyhow. Cheap insurance and yet another gauge I can use to monitor what's really going on.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

Very glad you get it fixed! HH isn't too bad to get off if you've done it before, but that first time can be a bear!

I am shocked that just running it out of fuel destroyed the HH so fast. I think I've run the M109 out about 5 times and all I do is add more fuel, prime, and it acts like nothing has happened. Maybe I just keep getting lucky? I haven't run out since I replaced the sending unit for the fuel gauge, and I add some when it reads 1/4 all the time now.

 

[patracy]

Very glad you get it fixed! HH isn't too bad to get off if you've done it before, but that first time can be a bear!

I am shocked that just running it out of fuel destroyed the HH so fast. I think I've run the M109 out about 5 times and all I do is add more fuel, prime, and it acts like nothing has happened. Maybe I just keep getting lucky? I haven't run out since I replaced the sending unit for the fuel gauge, and I add some when it reads 1/4 all the time now.

The difference is probably how the situation is handled.

I was running 2400+ rpm when it cut out (lost fuel), I kept on the fuel peddle thinking I could force it to make it to the shop 1/4 of a mile ahead. So I ran it for 1/4 of a mile, no fuel, 2000+ rpm. Or 15~20 seconds at 2K+ rpms without fuel. As was mentioned earlier. 2K rpm might not sound like much. But that plunger is moving 6K times a minute.

If I would have simply stopped and filled up fuel when it first gave me a sign, I doubt I would have broken anything. If I would have put it in neutral and coasted at the total loss of power, I bet I wouldn't have damaged it either. But asking the HH to move at high RPM without any lube would damage it in short order. Remember, everything below HH gear is oil lubed, everything cut off valve and up is fuel lubed. Those sections have an extremely close tolerance.

 

[3dAngus]

Wonder if Kenny has completed his next group buy on HH's. He was getting some good deals on them, but, some may not like the Chinese markings on them.

I might want to pick up another. Anyway, he has a thread on here somewhere for a group buy of HH's.

 

[patracy]

He hasn't completed it yet...

 

[Woodsplinter]

He needs more orders to make it happen.

 

[glcaines]

The difference is probably how the situation is handled. I was running 2400+ rpm when it cut out (lost fuel), I kept on the fuel peddle thinking I could force it to make it to the shop 1/4 of a mile ahead. So I ran it for 1/4 of a mile, no fuel, 2000+ rpm. Or 15~20 seconds at 2K+ rpms without fuel. As was mentioned earlier. 2K rpm might not sound like much. But that plunger is moving 6K times a minute. If I would have simply stopped and filled up fuel when it first gave me a sign, I doubt I would have broken anything. If I would have put it in neutral and coasted at the total loss of power, I bet I wouldn't have damaged it either. But asking the HH to move at high RPM without any lube would damage it in short order. Remember, everything below HH gear is oil lubed, everything cut off valve and up is fuel lubed. Those sections have an extremely close tolerance.

I think you are correct. When I was in the Army I ran a deuce out of fuel a few times and there were never any other issues, just added more fuel. However, I was off-road and going slow with minimal RPMs, and that is likely why there was no damage, as previously mentioned. Along those same lines, we were told only to use MOGAS in the multi-fuels in an emergency because of wear and damage to the IP and injectors. We were also told to put diesel in the tank as soon as possible after using MOGAS to help prevent damage to the IP.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

At least 3 of the 5 times I was rolling down the road and kept into it for a ways to get to a safe area to pull off, even with her chugging along.

I'm thinking I will order a spare head or two just to be sure.

 

[Cleveland Iron]

Then again component age or previous abuse may have been a factor... We really don't know how badly our rides were treated before we got them.

 

[patracy]

Drew, did you put on new O-rings?

No I did not. I used the best set of rings out of the two heads. One set had "squared" off on the sides, the other was still nicely pliable and round. I haven't reinstalled the cut off cable/cover yet though. There hasn't been any fuel (diesel only remember) leaking from the cut off lever or through the housing at the gear. I did apply some petroleum jelly to the rings and gave them a cleaning before reinstalling though.

Oh and it's been ~5hrs now since I last started it. Walked out and punched the button, it fired right up.

 

[moving chicane]

Thanks for documenting this from beginning to end, in an unbiased collected manner. It may come in handy in the future for someone. Glad everything is fixed

 

[patracy]

Thanks for documenting this from beginning to end, in an unbiased collected manner. It may come in handy in the future for someone. Glad everything is fixed

Well I didn't document everything. I'm certain I used a few "sentence enhancers" every time it died on me.

 

[197thhhc]

It sounds like you may have accelerated an already worn out HH. Didn't you say you always had to use starting fluid to get it going. I'm glad it worked out and I think your experiance and documenting it will help many people in the future.

 

[patracy]

It sounds like you may have accelerated an already worn out HH. Didn't you say you always had to use starting fluid to get it going. I'm glad it worked out and I think your experiance and documenting it will help many people in the future.

No.

the truck has never started without starting fluid and WOT since I ran it out of fuel.

Prior to that, it started fine.

 

[Ford Mechanic]

Just to clarify for me, the HH is the top part of the injection pump right? Or is that refering to the whole thing?
Thanks for outlining this as good as you have!