Fuel sticker violation in NC

[84crawling]

everyone who gets caught crys the blues, but it is illegal to use any of the fuels you list. many people do this, but when you are caught how can you think you are right?

The Charge on the ticket is for "highway use of dyed diesel"..there is no dyed diesel in the tank, period! Never has been,never will be.

...So ur argument is invaled lol

 

[paulfarber]

"presence of dye of 1.4 parts per million"..."

Yeah, there IS.

You have some work to do.

1: PROVE that the dye was not there, they made a mistake and you are innocent.

2: pay the fine

3: post on SS that you never knew/broke the law

If you can prove that the Military can/does use dyed diesel, then do so and hopefully then you can convince the judge that *YOU* didn't add it.

It sounds like you will do #3, then #2. When your efforts should be in #1.

 

[rmgill]

If I get a cop wanting to check my fuel. I'm going to ask for probable cause AND if he has a warrant.

I'm not driving a commercial vehicle. There is no "license" to be checked and if he wants to conduct a criminal investigation on a private citizen then I'm going to stand my ground.

IFTA is written for taxes on BUSINESS vehicles generally. Our MVs are to a larger degree POVs. The Feds recognize that in § 390.3 and § 383 of the FMCSA Regs. Granted IFTA is a DIFFERENT organization that's promulgating rules that are meant to cover commercial vehicles.

Recreational vehicles are exempt for a reason.

 

[zout]

Ditto - with above.

You are soley responsible to know the law when stepping into something and investigating it without any prior knowledge - no one has to tell you - you are it.

Did you have the opportunity to make sure the fuel was legal before you ran ?
Did you add something to the fuel to make it illegal to save $$$$$ ?
Did you cross state lines without paying that state its fuel tax ?
Did you know you owe that state its fuel tax if you have a vehicle that qualifies ?

Did you have something in your fuel when tested - quilty - pay the fine and now you know. Its a no brainer for me. Rant - rave - complain - its the law & I deal with it every day.

IF you have fuel on site and have low sulpher fuel - do you have the proper sticker on your pump ?
Do you have fuel on site and have ultra low sulpher fuel - that is another sticker all by itself and it is a $5,000 fine for not having a sticker on your pumps and worse if you stick low sulpher in a truck that should have ultra low sulpher fuel in it.

 

[rmgill]

Also of note, during the 2005 fuel shortage, dyed fuel was for a while legal to be used in ROAD fuel uses.

IRS Waives Diesel Fuel Penalty Due to Hurricane Katrina

Some dye will remain in the fuel system.

Challenge them on the percentage.

 

[rmgill]

Paul, you can believe in IDLELOGY all you went but it comes down to this, the bottom line MONEY
If the states and fed can call our trucks commercial (even though thay are not) to get money thay will, we fall in a GRAY area, when the regs were/are written we were/are such a SMALL percentage of the big truck owners that we we are not even thought of.

What you do is change the law. Sometimes the law supports you in ways you don't expect. The FMCSA folks are VERY clear, our trucks are NOT commercial by virtue of size. It is the use that makes them commercial. I do believe there was a change concerning Recreationally used MVs....though I cannot find it now...

Of course it would be funny to see them wanting to test the fuel on an M52. Put that fuel in your diesel tester....tell me what it says.

 

[3dAngus]

1.4 parts per million isn't enough to give a parrot diarrhea. People aren't thinking here.
FIGHT IT! It's ridiculous.

Guilty or no, if you put a quart of whatever in there, it's not worthy of a $1000 fine.
You never know what the military put in these fuel tanks, and anybody here driving a deuce could come up with the same problem without their knowledge. If they did, they would be screaming too.

Anyone can have 1.4 ppm in their tank unless they removed it, steam cleaned it, and put it all back together and topped with a full tank of clean diesel. Think about it.

It's a couple of molecules.

 

[rmgill]

The fact that there was a time a few years back that allowed the use of red fuel for road use for a shortage interval is a substantial defense point. For a $1000 fine, I'd get a lawyer.

I've fought these sorts of MV grey area things before and won. Several ways.

 

[dstang97]

If you were to mix Home heating oil, motor oil, Kero, Hydraulic oil, Diesel and gas all together. How do they find the "dye" in the HHO?

 

[Bulldog 4]

It's all liquid, it mixes in. Your point you have in your case is the extremely small amount. I know that dyed fuel has enough dye in it to be visible, but yours apparently was not. The amount was so small it had to be detected in a lab. I would see if I could get a lawyer to write them a letter asking them to dismiss the fine explaining all the different things you have tried as additives. Sometimes a lawyer can get things done that we can't just on the implied threat of a lawsuit.

 

[paulfarber]

If I get a cop wanting to check my fuel. I'm going to ask for probable cause AND if he has a warrant.

I'm not driving a commercial vehicle. There is no "license" to be checked and if he wants to conduct a criminal investigation on a private citizen then I'm going to stand my ground.

IFTA is written for taxes on BUSINESS vehicles generally. Our MVs are to a larger degree POVs. The Feds recognize that in § 390.3 and § 383 of the FMCSA Regs. Granted IFTA is a DIFFERENT organization that's promulgating rules that are meant to cover commercial vehicles.

Recreational vehicles are exempt for a reason.

You agree to all sorts of things the you are not aware of as a condition to operating a vehicle on public roads.

Read this:

http://www.revenue.state.il.us/LegalInformation/Hearings/mf/MF07-6.pdf

Its been scrubbed of personal info... but I can't see it being vastly different in the other states.

 

[paulfarber]

In PA: Make sure you read the part about refusal at the bottom...

http://law.onecle.com/pennsylvania/vehicles/00.090.019.000.html

(c) Dyed diesel fuel not to be used on public highways.--
(1) A person may not operate a motor vehicle on the public highways of this Commonwealth if the fuel supply tanks of the vehicle contain dyed diesel fuel unless permitted to do so under a Federal law or regulation relating to the use of dyed diesel fuel on the highways.


(2) A person may not sell or deliver any dyed diesel fuel knowing or having reason to know that the fuel will be consumed in a highway use. A person who dispenses dyed diesel fuel from a retail pump that is not properly labeled with the notice required by subsection (b) or who knowingly delivers dyed diesel fuel into the storage tank of such a pump shall be presumed to know the fuel will be consumed on the highway.
(d) Violations.--A person may not do any of the following:

(1) Import, export or transport within this Commonwealth diesel fuel, other than dyed diesel fuel, without the permit required under subsection (a)(1).
(2) Transport diesel fuel in this Commonwealth without the permit required under subsection (a)(1).
(3) Operate a motor vehicle on the public highways of this Commonwealth with dyed diesel fuel in the fuel supply tank except as provided in subsection (c)(1).
(4) Sell or deliver dyed diesel fuel from a retail pump unless the pump is properly labeled as required under subsection (b).
(e) Criminal penalty.--A person who violates any provision of subsection (d) commits a summary offense and shall, upon conviction, be sentenced to pay a fine of not less than $100 nor more than $2,000 or to imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or both.
(f) Civil penalty.--In addition to any penalty provided in subsection (d), a person who violates subsection (c)(1) or (2) shall be assessed a penalty of $1,000 or $10 per gallon of dyed diesel fuel involved in the sale, delivery or consumption, whichever amount is more. This amount shall be multiplied by the number of prior penalties imposed on the violator under this subsection. The resulting product shall be the penalty to be imposed.
(g) Enforcement.--
(1) Any revenue enforcement agent or other person authorized by the department may enter any place where fuels are produced or stored and may physically inspect any tank, reservoir or other container that can be used for the production, storage or transportation of diesel fuel, diesel fuel dyes or diesel fuel markers. Inspection may also be made of any equipment used for or in connection with the production, storage or transportation of diesel fuel, diesel fuel dyes or diesel fuel markers. This includes any equipment used for the dyeing or marking of diesel fuel. Books, records and other documents may be inspected to determine tax liability. An agent may detain a vehicle, vessel or railroad tank car placed on a customer's siding for use or storage for the purpose of inspecting fuel tanks or fuel storage tanks as necessary to determine the amount and composition of the fuel. An agent may take and remove samples of diesel fuel in reasonable quantities necessary to determine the composition of the fuel.
(2) A person that refuses to allow an inspection as provided in this subsection commits a summary offense and shall, upon conviction, be sentenced to pay a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $2,000 for each refusal.

 

[motomacguyver]

You agree to all sorts of things the you are not aware of as a condition to operating a vehicle on public roads.

Read this:

http://www.revenue.state.il.us/LegalInformation/Hearings/mf/MF07-6.pdf

Its been scrubbed of personal info... but I can't see it being vastly different in the other states.

From my humble point of view,,, this seems like a convincing argument.

I would “like” to say that we could run anything we want in our trucks, I REALLY wish we could, however the law say's NOT. If your engine were a STATIONARY engine, you would have recourse, but operating it on any kind of federal, state, county, city road, means you oblige by there rules. From what little I have read, you do have a right to travel, but not a right to try to defeat FEDERAL tax laws; this is why the fellows who make bio-diesel, have to have a permit. I have also heard of Farmers getting stung in our area just for pulling their tractors onto the roadway to get from field “A” to field “B”.

Your best bet, in my opinion, is to find that the amount of dye in the fuel was inconsequential, or….A PART OF THE ADDITIVES YOU PUT INTO THE FUEL FOR LUBRICATIONS SAKE, or prove it was there before you bought the truck.

For your sake, I hope marvel mystery oil or ATF, has this dye in it.

My thoughts are that, sadly, unless you have a LARGE amount of disposable income, the fight will cost you more than the victory.

FWIW, I run straight diesel from the pump. The $ it costs now is well worth the $ it would cost if a problem arose. (Plus I only drive a few thousand miles per year)


Just my 2 cents, I have no law experience. Best of luck to you.

 

[Bulldog 4]

Remember these are two separate and distinct issues: the IFTA sticker issue affects only commercial vehicles but the dyed fuel issue applies to everybody. If you use dyed fuel you are skipping out on paying the taxes that are normally added to the price at the pump. Everybody pays that whether they realize it or not. A large chunk of the price per gallon whether it is gas or diesel is federal and state ROAD taxes - not the same as SALES tax. I'm sure most of you guys know this but there are a lot of people who don't.

 

[paulfarber]

IFTA is not a tax.

There are fuel taxes.

If you drive in PA, but fuel up in NJ, PA would not get any fuel tax because you paid it all in NJ.

IFTA forces you to record how many miles you drive in each state and how much/where you bought fuel. It then 'reconciles' your 'account' to spread the taxes to the states you drove in on a per mile basis.

I *completely* agree with this. Road taxes are a good thing.

I guess that if you were a blender, and submitted fuel tax for dyed diesel I think you would still get busted because all of the statutes ban the dyed fuel in the tank, and never addresses the tax issue.

I think that in PA, you could prove that your M35 is a recreational vehicle, as defined. Since you are in for at least $1000 (minimum statutory fine) you might consider hiring a lawyer and fight it. I would fight it even if it was $100.

Even if you dump WMO or WVO in your tank, you are STILL LIABLE for motor fuel tax. So if you dumped motor oil in your tank, got dipped, yo would still have to justify the fuel tax for the oil you are burning... IFTA/dye or not.

One guy says he has a blenders license just to cover this... I may look into that just to CYA. But the problem is quarterly filings.. miss one and the fine can be just as bad as getting caught with un-taxed fuel.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

They want the road taxes from ANY fuel burned to propel ANY vehicle on a public roadway. From a M911 to a volkswagon beetle.

The tank dipping is not limited to 'commercial' trucks.

Like I've been saying, you get a blenders license, someone wants to dip the tank, you show the license. You get the license, you SELF REPORT and pay the taxes on any 'untaxed' fuel. Very easy, very cheap, and keeps the law off your back. Every few months I send in a report with some useage, and send a check for a dollar or two.

My reports (sent by the revenue office each month for me to fill out) have a block for dyed off road diesel. You put how many gallons you used the month, multiply it by $.165, and send them a check. If you didn't use anything, you mark the box for no activity to report. There is an other box too, that I put hydro oil and WMO in.

If you want to save money and burn odd fuels, go all the way and make sure you are doing it legally.

 

[gimpyrobb]

I was talking with another member about this the other day. Seems it costs $.28 a gallon here in Ohio. Thats $42 per 150gal. I will be paying Ohio their taxes.

 

[rmgill]

You agree to all sorts of things the you are not aware of as a condition to operating a vehicle on public roads.

Read this:

http://www.revenue.state.il.us/LegalInformation/Hearings/mf/MF07-6.pdf

Its been scrubbed of personal info... but I can't see it being vastly different in the other states.

I'm not going to consent to the illegal search. Basic law is that in order to conduct a search they MUST have probable cause. They cannot just search anyone based on no RAS or PC. This is basic 4th amendment law. If I consent to the search then sure, they'll have grounds. They can search ABSENT my permission, but I'm not giving it.

 

[rmgill]

(2) A person that refuses to allow an inspection as provided in this subsection commits a summary offense and shall, upon conviction, be sentenced to pay a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $2,000 for each refusal.[/B]

That is constitutionally indefensible.

Change the language.

"(2) A person that refuses to allow an inspection as of their home or person provided in this subsection commits a summary offense and shall, upon conviction, be sentenced to pay a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $2,000 for each refusal."

If they have RAS or PC they can search. If they don't, then I'm calling my lawyer. They CAN search, I'm just not giving them permission to conduct a warrantless search. Requiring by statute that I give permission for a search is an end run around the 4th amendment and standing law.

See the 2-3-4 rule.

 

[zout]

Driving is a priviledge - not a Right.

If you drive - you either do or don't obey the laws for the priviledge.

Choose not to wear a seatbelt - get a ticket
Choose to text and drive - get a ticket