Help needed to stop me throwing money at my CUCV, Hopping/Vibration

[eme411]

what's the tire brand you have on the truck? have you checked all your shocks front and rear, steering damper? who installed the tires ? was it the new guy? before throwing more money at it know the answer to these, then move on,

 

[dmetalmiki]

A thought just crossed my mind, Does the Engine (ballancer) vibrate/shake/ shudder at all?
Discounting that, Does the Gearbox..etc etc?. (as )I would run it without propshafts, in gears jacked up. I would then try running with 1st. Rear propshaft only. 2nd. Front propshaft only.
You have got to solve this problem. (by process of elimination( Problem, Not truck!)).

 

[cucvrus]

Does it have GM wheels that are riding on the hubs and the lug studs? Not just the studs like a Ford or Dodge 16" wheel would. And you can drive as fast as you want that should not make it vibrate more. That is a choice you have and I drive on interstates 78 & 81 everyday with an M1008 that is 100% stock. 70 - 75 mph. I run Goodyear Dura tracks and Goodyear MTR 's LT 235/85R16 on both trucks. No problems. I did have a small dent in the rear drive shaft. That caused a slight vibration. I had the drive shaft repaired/balanced and now I have a slight vibration from tires but that is all. One truck I have an M1028 has so many vibrations I don't even know where to start. It stays in town and just plows snow and works a salt spreader. Many things can cause a vibration on trucks of the vintage. They were trucks back then. Now new trucks are as smooth as the cars were back in the 80's even smoother. Good Luck. If I did not see any adverse issues arising from the vibration I would just live with it. Throwing money at it is another option. Your choice.

 

[Chaski]

What size tires are you running? I have seen flat spots cause issues like this. Support your axle on jackstands with the tires just off the ground. You can turn the wheel by hand and gauge if it has a hump or flat spot. Some plywood and metal scraps can be stacked and placed under the tire so that the gap between the tire and the ground is smaller.

 

[Ackevor]

So I got home at 330, did some troubleshooting on wife's car which is burning near 2 quarts of oil (2006 Ford Fusion V6 100k miles) and determined its got blown rings or gouges/lobed cylinders.. then I got onto my truck. Check the driveshaft, its in phase... check, made sure the U-joints were seated properly... check... then I did the following below.

Could it be a bent rim? Either out of round or the center is warped, causing the tire to wobble? Does the steering wheel shake or anything. Another thing for a quick test you could let someone drive up and down the street while you watch to see if you can tell anything. Also like someone said jack it up block all fours off the ground and try "driving" it.
I would put the other wheels and tires on and see if it changes. Then if it does i would have to shop break down each tire to see if someone left their lunch box or something in one. We all know its hard to find good help.

Also another thing can you tell if the any of the tires and wheels are off center of the hub? If a tire was off center it could be perfectly round and balanced but still act like a lobe on a camshaft.
Hope this help somehow.

It most certainly could be, but it may be another issue entirely. I bought the wheels from another guy who had a Scottsdale, never realized with it being a lug centric system that the new wheels not sitting on the hub could cause issues. See attached photos. I don't feel it in the wheel specifically but the truck as a whole would bounce up and down including the steering wheel. I jacked it up and got all 4 wheels off the ground. Giving it a little gas I could start to feel the vibration begin. I did notice the driver front wheel wouldn't want to spin unless I gave it plenty of fuel or the passenger side was held up. Either way the vibration was happening without that one spinning. I walked to the three that would and it did look like I had an out of round condition or a lobing possible because the wheels are bent, or off center of the hub because they don't sit on it.

Seeing this I removed all 4, cleaned up the rust on the mating surface of the old ones, installed and aired all 4 up to 60 psi. Went for a spin and I found myself habitually bobbing my head at those speeds haha.

Once I stopped myself and focused on the speeds it was most severe It was gone! then I hit 50mph and up and I started hearing more vibrations, which reminded me of the drive shaft being bent but not nearly as severe. Thinking I had one issue solved and I would just have to install all my new parts and see if that uncovered vibrations goes away I was content... until this morning

what's the tire brand you have on the truck? have you checked all your shocks front and rear, steering damper? who installed the tires ? was it the new guy? before throwing more money at it know the answer to these, then move on,

Mastercraft Courser AXT 285/75-16 (32.8"x11.2"), Tires For Less W 26th St Erie, PA, Been going to them for years and never had an issue, owner is a good guy but I have no clue if there was someone new doing the tires or not. Shocks front and rear were replaced just days ago when I did kingpin springs and bushings(shock absorbers, not leaf springs). Not sure how to check steering damper but nothing in the steering system has any give using unassisted manpower.

A thought just crossed my mind, Does the Engine (ballancer) vibrate/shake/ shudder at all?
Discounting that, Does the Gearbox..etc etc?. (as )I would run it without propshafts, in gears jacked up. I would then try running with 1st. Rear propshaft only. 2nd. Front propshaft only.
You have got to solve this problem. (by process of elimination( Problem, Not truck!)).

The Harmonic Balancer? I dont think so, I watched the belts spin round and round after I replaced them last week and nothing looked out of place, I guess when it was spinning it didn't look like it spun perfectly flat and true, maybe a twinge of a bent edge or something? I'll have to take videos of some of this stuff and see what you all think. Gearbox I don't think so, its a fresh rebuilt 700r4 with 150 miles on it, however, I can tell there is a drive line vibration so I will be taking prop shafts off and do as you suggested, Whats a good method for plugging the holes where shaft seal to keep fluid in?

Does it have GM wheels that are riding on the hubs and the lug studs? Not just the studs like a Ford or Dodge 16" wheel would. And you can drive as fast as you want that should not make it vibrate more. That is a choice you have and I drive on interstates 78 & 81 everyday with an M1008 that is 100% stock. 70 - 75 mph. I run Goodyear Dura tracks and Goodyear MTR 's LT 235/85R16 on both trucks. No problems. I did have a small dent in the rear drive shaft. That caused a slight vibration. I had the drive shaft repaired/balanced and now I have a slight vibration from tires but that is all. One truck I have an M1028 has so many vibrations I don't even know where to start. It stays in town and just plows snow and works a salt spreader. Many things can cause a vibration on trucks of the vintage. They were trucks back then. Now new trucks are as smooth as the cars were back in the 80's even smoother. Good Luck. If I did not see any adverse issues arising from the vibration I would just live with it. Throwing money at it is another option. Your choice.

See attached image for rim to hub fit, I never gave it a second thought but it could be the cause... if one of the rims isn't also bent. I plan to get all 4 old tires off ground again with the original wheels that do ride on the hubs and see if the vibration I felt with new tires off the ground is present. I really wish I had someone to help with this, trying to apply gas and walk around the truck is rather difficult, using a wood block just ends up going to speeds beyond what I need. I just worry whatever is causing it will end up wearing other items prematurely and it doesn't exactly feel safe if I tow my ATVs on the highway.

What size tires are you running? I have seen flat spots cause issues like this. Support your axle on jackstands with the tires just off the ground. You can turn the wheel by hand and gauge if it has a hump or flat spot. Some plywood and metal scraps can be stacked and placed under the tire so that the gap between the tire and the ground is smaller.

Mastercraft Courser AXT 285/75-16 (32.8"x11.2") I checked this and the tires seem fine but it did look like a slight lobing effect was present either from the rims being bent of off the hub. Only way to tell for sure it take them off and indicate the wheels... but seeing as how the rims with the new tires dont ride on the hubs... I might be better off getting new rims or refurbishing the rusted old ones.



After last night (Old tires installed with original rims) I was excited thinking I could come here and tell you all how silly it was that the rims were the cause... but this morning at 04:15 AM I started driving to work. It never fails, if its in my car, wifes car, the truck or any vehicle, I am always more sensitive to movements and out of place vibrations first thing in the morning... sure enough it felt like it did with the new tires. very slight oval feeling at about 22mph, then a that visor shake at 50mph, this time albeit a lot less severe, almost like the larger newer tires amplify the effect and these older smaller tires don't make it as noticeable.

I think what I need to do remove all 4 tires and indicate runout at the wheel bearing hub assemblies and see if they are out of round, bent, or otherwise out of spec. Anything from there will just get amplified the larger the tires get. I suppose I could remove both prop shafts first and see if that vibrations are present with no wheel movement first as well. That will probably take less time than pulling all the wheels off... Unfortunately its going to be cooler and raining all day here and I have a lot I need to get done before the snow shows up so its important to me that I maximize time and make the most of troubleshooting efficiency. I'm no stranger to working in the rain so I may just do it anyway.

I greatly appreciate all the input I have gotten so far, thank you all for your support.

 

[cucvrus]

WOW you are showing 4 different wheels. That can cause issues. The GM spoke wheel on the front has a different off set then the original wheels did. Newer vehicles put the wheels further under the vehicle and carry the weight on the outer edge of the rim. I would try removing the tires from the wheels and checking the bare rims for balance and run out. Then get a matching set of wheels and clean them up real good and then check them again. If you have rust and dirt or grease hunks hanging inside it don't take long to get and ounce or 2 of weight off center and when that dirt is gone the tire/wheel is not longer balanced. When I have mud and ice on my wheels I feel it at highway speeds. I don't worry about it but still the vibration is there. A little bit of mismatching of different wheels and you have a vibration issue. One Ford wheel on the M1008 I drive daily caused a vibration because the wheels were not riding on the hub and thus were not hub piloted. I changed the wheel and the slight vibration was gone. But the pictures you posted do definitely show 2 different wheels possibly 3 maybe 4. Get all the rims the same size width and center hub correct if you are looking for perfection in this 30 year old truck. Good luck. That first picture has a lot of wheel weights hanging from the outside. I would break that tire down and spin it a bit on the rim and try the spin balance again. Maybe you could reach a happy medium. New tires often used to have a dot of paint on them. That dot was to be lined up with the valve stem of the wheel when mounting them. The theory was that was the high spot of the tire. And the valve stem was punched in the rim at the low spot of the rim. You were to line them up the dot and the valve stem hole and you would have an easier balancing assembly. Anyone else ever heard of this? Is it true IDK> I just did it because when I was in high school I worked at a Sears Auto Center and that is what I was taught. It seemed to make sense. I say it to others and they never heard of it. Anyone???? Honest opinions? Or accurate knowledge?? No BS. I think it has some validity to it.

 

[Ackevor]

WOW you are showing 4 different wheels. That can cause issues. The GM spoke wheel on the front has a different off set then the original wheels did. Newer vehicles put the wheels further under the vehicle and carry the weight on the outer edge of the rim. I would try removing the tires from the wheels and checking the bare rims for balance and run out. Then get a matching set of wheels and clean them up real good and then check them again. If you have rust and dirt or grease hunks hanging inside it don't take long to get and ounce or 2 of weight off center and when that dirt is gone the tire/wheel is not longer balanced. When I have mud and ice on my wheels I feel it at highway speeds. I don't worry about it but still the vibration is there. A little bit of mismatching of different wheels and you have a vibration issue. One Ford wheel on the M1008 I drive daily caused a vibration because the wheels were not riding on the hub and thus were not hub piloted. I changed the wheel and the slight vibration was gone. But the pictures you posted do definitely show 2 different wheels possibly 3 maybe 4. Get all the rims the same size width and center hub correct if you are looking for perfection in this 30 year old truck. Good luck. That first picture has a lot of wheel weights hanging from the outside. I would break that tire down and spin it a bit on the rim and try the spin balance again. Maybe you could reach a happy medium. New tires often used to have a dot of paint on them. That dot was to be lined up with the valve stem of the wheel when mounting them. The theory was that was the high spot of the tire. And the valve stem was punched in the rim at the low spot of the rim. You were to line them up the dot and the valve stem hole and you would have an easier balancing assembly. Anyone else ever heard of this? Is it true IDK> I just did it because when I was in high school I worked at a Sears Auto Center and that is what I was taught. It seemed to make sense. I say it to others and they never heard of it. Anyone???? Honest opinions? Or accurate knowledge?? No BS. I think it has some validity to it.

I took a wide shot of each wheel and a close shot of the gap off the hub. The cleaner non rusted chrome one to the left are the wheels that have the new tires and do not sit on the hub. The one to the right that's rusted are the wheels that have the old tires (pretty cracked up I might add) and sit on the hub nicely. Each has a matching set, no oddball rims. Now the old rims do have 2 different brand of tires with the same tread pattern, but I cant recall what they were, I just made sure they were paired on same axle after I took off the newer wheels and tires.

I should note I didnt think to take a picture of the newer wheels on the front before I removed them, so I took a picture while I still had them on the back before I installed the old wheels.

 

[86m1028]

Wheel to center hub isn't gonna make a difference.

Bent wheel or bad tire could cause the vibe.

It could also be a bad axle ujoint.

 

[ODFever]

You mentioned that the truck pulls to the right when braking. Did you replace the rubber brake lines to the calipers? Sometimes the lines collapse which causes brake fluid to press on the pucks and never fully release.

 

[Ackevor]

You mentioned that the truck pulls to the right when braking. Did you replace the rubber brake lines to the calipers? Sometimes the lines collapse which causes brake fluid to press on the pucks and never fully release.

I have yet to replace the braking system on the front. I am waiting on the 2nd rotor to be delivered hopefully tomorrow. Then I will replace both rotors, wheel bearings, calipers, pads, and hydraulic hoses. The lines on it now look good other than the metal portions are rusted pretty good.

Hopefully a good brass hammer and punch, or hand sledge and brass punch will be enough to get the studs out and back in. I wont have access to a press this time.

Have you considered replacing the steering components while you're doing the brakes? I created this thread last year when I did the job on my M1009. It may help you.
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?125140-M1009-Tie-Rod-End-Replacement-Project

You mentioned that the truck pulls to the right when braking. Did you replace the rubber brake lines to the calipers? Sometimes the lines collapse which causes brake fluid to press on the pucks and never fully release.

HAHA I read your thread about a week or so ago while I was ordering brake components. I will have to pull up costs for all the parts... but I am afraid I might not be able to get anything loose right now... or have the extra time to replace it just because. I wish I could have a clone of myself to get things done twice as fast

 

[ODFever]

Have you considered replacing the steering components while you're doing the brakes? I created this thread last year when I did the job on my M1009. It may help you.
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?125140-M1009-Tie-Rod-End-Replacement-Project

 

[Ackevor]

Decided today to get a new harmonic balancer after reading a few threads and horror stories. It definitely looks old and is probably going bad and might be why the truck has such a loud resonant vibration at idle inside the cab. Ordered the Dorman through AA, it ended up being $45 shipped w/tax after using trt41 ($40 off $100 order). Not saying its a part of this threads issue, but just another part to add that may help reduce extra vibration and noise.

Its pouring rain and wont stop until later tonight so I wont get to doing any diagnosis on the truck until tomorrow. Drives me crazy when I want to try things but weather doesn't cooperate

 

[Ackevor]

The Rancho Part Number RS97325 has got 2 reviews, and one claims it broke causing him to wreck. Have you had any issues?

 

[Ackevor]

https://youtu.be/dzmRb7DGY8A
OK, there was a lull in the rain so I tried to quickly test a few things. The video might be proof enough that at least one new drum is out of spec.

I ran it without any driveshafts. There is a resonating vibration through the truck while in gear at higher speeds and it may be the harmonic balancer or possibly the fan, or both.

Then ran it with front off the ground in 4 high. Again I could only get the passenger side wheel to spin and there was more vibrations on top of just the drive-train, but nothing like what I was feeling on the road.

I took it out of 4 high, set front on the ground, installed rear shaft and the results are in the video. With the tires on, there is more shaking than the front alone, my brother thought the passenger rear looked odd so I took the tires off and ran with just the drums. Again, results you can see at the end of the video.

Here are indicator readings:

Passenger & Driver Hub at face: .005" total runout
Passenger Drum on outer ring (indicating difference from center of hub): .000 at 12 and 6 o clock, +.010 at 9 and -.010 at 3 o clock (this tells me its .010 short on one side, and .010 long on the opposite side from center)
Passenger Drum on back outer face (check for warping): +.022" from 0 so from the 12 o clock its 0 then at the 6 o clock its .022" perpendicular difference.

I have no idea what is acceptable but its noticeable and I am unsure if getting it balanced will fix it, or if it being warped will still cause issues.

 

[infidel got me]

That drum or axle is bent, you can see the tire wobbling and with just the drum spinning you can see your tailpipe vibrate worse as speed is increased

 

[eme411]

after seeing your wheels , that would be my first thing to fix , go back to OE rims and tire size , I bet most of your problems go away, that's like having a car with omni fit rims , had a VW Golf with rims like that all went into the scrap and OE VW mags went on , problem GONE, loose the wheels or try someone else's OE wheels on your truck,

 

[86m1028]

Is that drum completely seated against the hub ?
It looks to me that even the hub is wobbling.

 

[86m1028]

.....

 

[Ackevor]

That drum or axle is bent, you can see the tire wobbling and with just the drum spinning you can see your tailpipe vibrate worse as speed is increased

My thoughts exactly, I hope its not the axle, I got the same runout with an indicator on the driver side checking the face of the bearing flange so im suspecting its just the drum. The driver side does it somewhat but not half as bad.

after seeing your wheels , that would be my first thing to fix , go back to OE rims and tire size , I bet most of your problems go away, that's like having a car with omni fit rims , had a VW Golf with rims like that all went into the scrap and OE VW mags went on , problem GONE, loose the wheels or try someone else's OE wheels on your truck,

The wheels I have on this video are the ones that sit properly on the hub and are old and rusted (ie the ones that came with the truck) I have no idea if they are OEM or not but they are 16" and all match. But since I noticed a heavy vibration with the drums only, I suspect the tires aren't to blame. I did not have time to install and test the new tires on the wheels that dont sit on the hub.

Is that drum completely seated against the hub ?
It looks to me that even the hub is wobbling.

Yes sir its seated, took my time with a press to get everything properly fitted and in the right pattern during install. I thought at first the hub was wobbling but I think its just because of the extra material on one end was playing with my eyes.

I would say you still have a balance issue .. if it was me I would remove all wheel weights and put equal in all four tires .. just because you have new drums and shoes does not mean that they are balanced drums.. and front rotors could be warped out of round as well. the noise you hear when turning could be bad bearings in front end. it is a balance issue some where. bent rims even. yes I am sure you had the new tires Balanced but the rest of the rear end is not balanced so put equal in and try it..

Seems like he was on it from the start. Not sure how to go about getting a new one. Hopefully rock auto doesn't charge me to ship it back... Spend a lot of prep time getting it ready for paint to keep it from rusting away in chunks like the ones before it.

By the way I got to bed early, 4 AM comes fast, otherwise I would have stayed up to respond.

 

[Ackevor]

Submitted a warranty claim for the drum. Hopefully Rock Auto takes care of things, I don't want to be paying shipping all over again.

In the meantime there are other vibrations going on, that's without any wheels moving. Will revving the engine up to a point in Neutral help diagnose if its the Harmonic Balancer causing the issue separating engine from drivetrain? I felt it while in drive with no drive-shaft installed. What would cause this issue? Unbalanced flywheel , torque converter (new), something in the transmission (rebuilt)? I know when it idles it vibrates everything and all the interior stuff hums to life. but if I give it just a bit of fuel the vibrations stop (I figure this is from it creating a resonance at the same rpm for 30 years), buuuut I just want to make sure I take care of anything that can cause issues and premature wear.

Thanks again for the help thus far everyone.